Why do mods do this?

[Nero Cain]

I don't understand why in a closed setup a mod would publicly out that the game is singleball or that there are no third parties. Could someone explain why this is a fairly common practice these days?

(protip:it shouldn't)

[Alisae]

Because multiball and third parties are cancer and mods are kind enough to design their game so that it has no cancer ty have a nice day

[Nero Cain]

designing a game not to be MB or SKless has nothing to do with mods taking away a scumteams strength and telling them that there's no SK or no 2nd team.

I'd also consider "rolemadness" more of a cancer than MB or a SK game.

[Alisae]

I mean if you have a careful eye for wincons you can get that information yourself depending on wincons
but thats not really as strong as a strength as you think it is

[northsidegal]

some players don't want to play multiball, so i guess it's a courtesy to them to know beforehand.

plus, it can be used for planned setup spec too if you're including a vigilante, to confirm them as town.

[Nero Cain]

A wincon

SHOULDN'T

say anything about the setup. I mean, you can fairly easily tell if a game is MB or singleball based on the # of players. SK is another matter.

True, a scum teams power to fake SK gambit or push paranoia that "this guy is SK!" doesn't offer much equity but its a tool they could use and a mod telling them that "hey there's no third party!" takes that all away. It also confirms that a vig is a vig. Mods are meant to be impartial yet giving town setup information seems to be the opposite of that.

[Alisae]

well maybe you should go mod more games and be the change you want to be.

[Nero Cain]

If all your going to do is deflect just stop posting.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's slightly alarming to me that this is a common practice these days and I wanted to say something. No one really seems interested in this and you're obviously going to defend it here but I think it's a silly practice and I don't really think it should be a thing.

[northsidegal]

True, a scum teams power to fake SK gambit or push paranoia that "this guy is SK!" doesn't offer much equity but its a tool they could use and a mod telling them that "hey there's no third party!" takes that all away. It also confirms that a vig is a vig. Mods are meant to be impartial yet giving town setup information seems to be the opposite of that.

i mean, i agree with you that it takes away a potential gambit in much the same way that i think certain rules that mods have take away unlikely and once in a million yet possible gambits that scum can pull off, but i think the difference comes in in that sometimes confirming the vig to be town is part of the setup in and of itself.

you would never say having an informed townie means the mod isn't impartial, right? it's just part of the setup.

that's the way that i see it.


(editing because i overuse words when i don't proofread posts before i make them)

[Alisae]

I mean seeing you make multiple threads in MD about modding stuff I figured you have a lot to say and that you think the way you mod games and design setups is superior so I was suggesting you go mod. Its the best way to influence the meta if you don't like it.

[Nero Cain]

I mean, If the mod wants to throw up an innocent child vigilante then fine I guess but if that's the case it should still work like an IC me thinks.

@Alisae

-I can have opinions without being super active mod wise. I have modded 2 newbies and just got done modding a mini normal with Espenoge. Expect a theme in a bit, I'm just really lazy though and that's why I hadn't really gotten around to it.

[northsidegal]

I mean, If the mod wants to throw up an innocent child vigilante then fine I guess but if that's the case it should still work like an IC me thinks.

you mean like in the sense of being mod confirmed?

it's already similar to an IC in that it can be "activated" on whatever night the vig chooses to take a shot at which point a vig is confirmed to be in the game. from there the vig can choose to claim whenever, but scum can still counterclaim, which is something that i think should be left open even if it's unlikely to happen very frequently.

[Nero Cain]

sure y not? If the mods agenda is that s/he wants

THAT

role to be mod confirmed town then make them an IC. Yes, someone shooting and the mod confirming that there are no third party roles effectively makes him an IC but why is there such a need to give setup information out? Why is there a need to do something slightly different? What about a JOAT with a killing action? Doesn't it confirm other killing roles like a CPR doc or a PGO or any new made up killing combination? And wouldn't that make mods possible role list shrink?

[xyzzy]

I disclosed that my most recent closed mini theme was 10:3 -- the premise behind the game was that individual days didn't have deadlines but the game as a whole had a deadline, after which the town would automatically lose. this disclosure served two purposes -- first, it eliminated any ambiguity regarding how third party roles might work in the setup (which isn't mandatory, but makes setup analysis go a little more smoothly, which I think is a plus as long as it doesn't dominate the whole game), and second, it ensured that players had the opportunity to meaningfully plan out the timeline for the whole game without having to make concessions for a bunch of hypotheticals outside of their control.

in general, many players like knowing what to roughly expect going in; it's why we have the "is there a possibility that this is a bastard game" question for people joining queues as moderators. you're free to say that a game might be bastard when it's really not, and you're free to not disclose faction ratios, but for many games, it's a sensible choice.

[zMuffinMan]

I think the obvious reason - that a significant portion of people either don't like it or don't like being blind-sided by it - is a good enough reason to be open about it. You say you don't like role madness; would you like it if you signed up for a setup you weren't aware was role madness? Information about the setup like that (that town is initially unaware of) could arguably be considered an advantage for scum too (any knowledge of the setup is better than none). But mods are open about it because people like knowing what they're signing up for so they can know whether they're going to enjoy it or not.

I think a lesser reason is that town not knowing what they should be looking for means they're just playing blind guessing games. Behaviours that you'd look for in multiball are not going to be the same behaviours you'd look for in a game with a single scum faction and being unaware of what you should be looking for doesn't seem like a fun concept to me. You could argue this should be the case; I would argue it's pointless to play mafia like that. You could argue that town should be able to scum-hunt regardless; I'd argue that there's no real basis for this claim.

I can't think of a good reason why scum need or deserve to have that advantage either.

The point about the vigilante is a good one. I think FakeGod has some decent ideas with regards to that (e.g. gating the vigilante by, say, making it a compulsive role that dies when it hits town or is roleblocked, or something like "N5 vigilante" such that if they come under fire early, town would have to theoretically leave them alive for several days before they could even prove the role). There are probably a variety of other ideas that could be thought up for anyone that still wants to include a vigilante in setup where it's known there's a single faction without having people think it must be a town role.

[Alisae]

I put wolfvigs in larges

[zMuffinMan]

So does FakeGod, actually!

[Alisae]

Honestly more people should do that except you can't really do that if you don't know what you're doing cuz then you get met on the wrong end of pitchforks.

[mastina]

Smart game design balance actually hinges around how much of the setup's information is disclosed. Sometimes, yes. The best setup will have no setup information disclosed. But other times, it can be advantageous for setup design and/or balance to disclose certain aspects of the setup, as to better buff/nerf roles to be more in line with what the moderator has envisioned for the setup.

Additionally, fully disclosing faction sizes is a nice way of making a game have the aesthetic of a semi-open game. This is actually my favorite game type as both a player and moderator: a game where I don't know the

exact

nature of the game, but I have a fair idea of what the nature of the game entails.

These are benefits aside from the already aforementioned ones regarding players' preferences, and not blindsiding them. In particular, if your game is known to have more scum than the typical ratio would allot, then lylo would be a day earlier and that's a rather nasty surprise to an unsuspecting town if you didn't disclose the faction size as being larger than the expected amount. (Also, inversely, if your game has less scum than the typical ratio, then the scum players are going to feel ripped off and/or be searching for a traitor role that probably doesn't even exist, unless you advertise this in advance.)

[Nexus]

It was something which was decided for the Normal queue following feedback from players and mods alike, and it was made optional.

[Faraday]

Mods are meant to be impartial yet giving town setup information seems to be the opposite of that.

I mean, assuming this isn't considered in the balance seems somewhat absurd.

But ultimately I think the trade off of leaking certain info about your setup is worth it - there are enough people that hate multiscum that they'd just end up not enjoying the game, with it in. It certainly is something I tend to appreciate, i like to know how much actual control I'll have over my win con.

Role madness is also a thing that's generally advertised, and that also gives some info about the setup - i just generally think these things are worth knowing, for a lot of players.

[callforjudgement]

It's fairly critical to ensure that only the sort of player who enjoys the sort of game you're planning to run will sign up, or else you'll have a lot of upset players and replace-outs. Thus the information given in signups. (Note that "surprise me" is a sort of setup too, and some that many players enjoy, but you have to make it clear that players can't rely on any particular expectations.)

It's normally fairly easy to balance around any information you might have to give.

[Alisae]

I don't consider it in the balance I just want my players to know that my game will be a mutliball and sk free game.
I also advertise Role Madness most of the time but I wouldn't be surprised if one or two times I just didn't and assumed people knew what they were getting into cuz I'm modding the game.

[Nero Cain]

You say you don't like role madness; would you like it if you signed up for a setup you weren't aware was role madness?

No. Role madness is just swingy and unbalanced (IMO) I'll play them b/c mafia is mafia. I just don't consider them as highly as a normal or a balanced theme. (balance is subjective blah blah blah)

I think a lesser reason is that town not knowing what they should be looking for means they're just playing blind guessing games.

????

That's kinda the whole point. Its towns job to figure out what they are dealing with.

I can't think of a good reason why scum need or deserve to have that advantage either.

So why take that advantage away? Like I get that there has been some movent towards making towns win % better (at least in normals) and taking away that slight advantage from scum could help with that and if that's the evolution that you guys want on this site then fine I guess.

I can kinda get where xyzzy is coming from but that's pretty situational. I get (but reject) the "its letting players know what they are dealing with in a game." and it's maybe better for long-term health but I'm just a dinosaur and slow to adapt. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Ircher]

Why take the advantage away?

Because mafia as-is already has a large advantage over town, and town doesn't need to really be paranoid of serial killers and multiball, especially in a mini game.