Can meta be used as a defense?

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fdas
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:14 pm

So lets say in a game, a player claims that I am scummy because of something I did. Then I point out that in a previous game, I was accused of the exact same thing and in that game I was town. Is that a valid defense because it shows that the particular action is something that I do even when I am town?

Wisdom
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:08 am

Yes. Being scumread for aspects of your playstyle or personality is common and it's fine if you show that's the case to people who aren't familiar with you. Careful not to go into Trust tell territory though.

callforjudgement
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:23 am

I normally use meta only as a defence (i.e. "this would be a scumtell from most people, but isn't from person X").

However, I don't believe self-meta is valid for anything. Meta normally only works on people who aren't aware with it, so someone making a meta argument on themselves is pretty much intrinsicially invalidating their own argument. (As Wisdom's mention of trust tells is suggesting: if you're aware that there's something you do that indicates you're a particular alignment, and yet you don't do the "townish version" of it as scum, you're effectively not playing to win. So the only valid self-meta would be something that you're physically incapable of faking as scum despite being easily able to do it as town, and I find it very hard to see that situation arising.)

The specific example in the OP seems more like a meta-meta tell to me, though (which is something I've been meaning to write about: if someone's meta describes the way they in particular act, their meta-meta describes the way that other people act towards them in particular). Knowing your own meta-meta is very useful and one of the tools that's been more useful for me in catching scum. I haven't seen it used as a defence before, but there's no obvious reason why "people who say X about me are usually wrong" is necessarily an invalid statement, nor necessarily anything that the person being spoken about has any influence on.
Last edited by callforjudgement on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ankamius
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:09 am

If you're arguing for something being null, it's reasonable.
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fdas
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:32 pm

In post 2, callforjudgement wrote:I normally use meta only as a defence (i.e. "this would be a scumtell from most people, but isn't from person X").

However, I don't believe self-meta is valid for anything. Meta normally only works on people who aren't aware with it, so someone making a meta argument on themselves is pretty much intrinsicially invalidating their own argument. (As Wisdom's mention of trust tells is suggesting: if you're aware that there's something you do that indicates you're a particular alignment, and yet you don't do the "townish version" of it as scum, you're effectively not playing to win. So the only valid self-meta would be something that you're physically incapable of faking as scum despite being easily able to do it as town, and I find it very hard to see that situation arising.)

The specific example in the OP seems more like a meta-meta tell to me, though (which is something I've been meaning to write about: if someone's meta describes the way they in particular act, their meta-meta describes the way that other people act towards them in particular). Knowing your own meta-meta is very useful and one of the tools that's been more useful for me in catching scum. I haven't seen it used as a defence before, but there's no obvious reason why "people who say X about me are usually wrong" is necessarily an invalid statement, nor necessarily anything that the person being spoken about has any influence on.


Self meta can be used in the case of a defense but not when you are trying to say you are towny. If you are trying to say that you are towny because of it then there is incentive to fake it. But if all you are doing is defending yourself then all you are doing is saying that it is not scummy which is perfectly fine.

The example I gave can be summed up like this:
Redacted #1: You are scummy because you did X
Redacted #5: You guys went after me for that exact thing in another game and it didn't work then.

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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:15 pm

In post 2, callforjudgement wrote:if you're aware that there's something you do that indicates you're a particular alignment, and yet you don't do the "townish version" of it as scum, you're effectively not playing to win.

though, the "townish version" might still be pretty different from the actual town version.
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:54 pm

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Haschel Cedricson
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:09 pm

I never trust any meta read that I didn't build myself.
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fdas
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:52 am

In post 7, Haschel Cedricson wrote:I never trust any meta read that I didn't build myself.


The purpose here isn't to actually read someone based on meta. The example I gave was not using meta to claim that someone was either town or scum.

However, meta can be used to show why a particular argument is invalid. For example, someone says that you are scum because you were wishy washy. You then point to multiple games as town where you were accused of being wishy washy. Clearly their argument is ridiculous.

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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:35 pm

I think so

and to be honest, asking someone to make a self meta speech maybe can turn out to be useful, I mean, if they say that they do X when it's Y just to say "I wouldn't do this as scum", they are simply lying and if you do the effort to meta dive them, you can simply point it out and maybe even outright catch scum.

Other people usually don't lie while making self meta cases though because they know that if they lie it'll be bad if they get caught, so you gain MOSTLY honest meta by the person themselves (although regardless of alignment they can still say things that aren't true for tactical purpose or not being able to fully self-recognize all the aspects of their own play)

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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:07 pm

I sometimes do this
generally it's for some sort of lame generalistic argument anyway though, like "you're not posting """""content"""""."
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