Planned Changes: Newbie Game Deadlines

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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:50 pm

Post by PenguinPower »

In post 74, nancy wrote:Am assuming you would change prod ranges and such. I can foresee a potential problem getting replacements in time but hopefully that won't happen too much. Maybe it would be a good time to implement some other things to punish people for replacing out, but I don't know how that's possible since it's only 1 queue.
Correct assumption. Happy to hear your ideas on what that should be, and also from you/mhsmith0/anoyone else on appropriate action for replace outs.
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:57 pm

Post by Ircher »

As far as prods go:

24 hours is too short. It just isn't going to work; you can't expect someone to post around the exact same time every single day.
48 hours is probably too long tbh.

Thus, if we are going to shorten prod timers, I would recommend 36 hours. It matches the current site's expectations that people post at least once a day (and preferably a good bit more) while not being super difficult to keep up with (like 24 hours would).
---
As far as replacing out goes, we already have the rule that first-time newbies that replace-out can't join a new game (does it apply only to games in the newbie queue?) What other kind of punishment are we really looking at implementing? I mean, I don't think most people are really abusing the system/replacing out too much? (Listmods have taken action when that has been an issue for some players.)

Edit: We may want to have a system in place to punish ICs that replace out, but honestly, unless it is an issue that the site moderation team would already take action for, I don't think we need to penalize SEs or second-time newbies for occassionally replacing out, provided that it isn't a tactical replace out (because that is a trust tell).
Last edited by Ircher on Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:13 pm

Post by Sunlit Diamond »

What if it was simple policy that when someone is getting replaced, the game is paused and locked until a replacement is found?

As for how to deal with the people themselves... For SEs and ICs who are repeat offenders, maybe a timeout from newbie games until they've completed a game in another queue?
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:14 pm

Post by Ircher »

Locking the thread kills game momentum which can be worse than simply not having that player slot.
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:18 pm

Post by Sunlit Diamond »

Fair enough!
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:24 pm

Post by PenguinPower »

In post 76, Ircher wrote:As far as replacing out goes, we already have the rule that first-time newbies that replace-out can't join a new game (does it apply only to games in the newbie queue?) What other kind of punishment are we really looking at implementing? I mean, I don't think most people are really abusing the system/replacing out too much? (Listmods have taken action when that has been an issue for some players.)
I'm not really looking to be punitive to replace outs. The SE/IC queue is dry enough as is unless I put up the signal (aside: I do find it awesome that we have a player base that will step up quickly when that happens). That said, I am always open to feedback/thoughts/ideas if it will improve the queue and the site. That includes things that may sway me from my current opinion.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:57 pm

Post by ruru »

In post 80, PenguinPower wrote:I'm not really looking to be punitive to replace outs. The SE/IC queue is dry enough as is unless I put up the signal (aside: I do find it awesome that we have a player base that will step up quickly when that happens). That said, I am always open to feedback/thoughts/ideas if it will improve the queue and the site. That includes things that may sway me from my current opinion.
In my opinion replacements (and the information they leak) are the worst thing ever and generally ruin games in multiple ways

In a competition between two teams it's just not fun to be playing with/against different teams than originally signed up to play, it makes winning way less satisfying

This is probably an unpopular opinion but I would pretty much prefer modkill to replacement in all situations and like if a player can't commit to playing the game I don't think they should sign, period

In my first game the IC was policy lynched for complete lack of activity and one of the SEs had to replace out because he was too busy. I don't think having an SE/IC in a game who replaces out d1 is nearly as positive for new player experience as having a 7th newbie who is actually committed to playing the game so no I don't think having SE/ICs should ever be valued over punishing excessive replacement.

This is strictly from a newbie experience perspective and obviously there are other benefits to teaching newbies, like them not ruining their 2nd game for the more experienced players or whatever else
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:12 pm

Post by T-Bone »

Modkills would be way more punitive to the remaining players than a replacement.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:13 pm

Post by PenguinPower »

Given recent discussion/threads, I'm just going to put this back out again. There is a group that was/is focused on improving the Newbie Queue overall. I'm resetting the group as of tonight. The group's current functions are focused around general Queue improvement, Newbie survey data and IC ratings, and potential IC guideline modifications.

If anyone is interesting in joining the group, please shoot me a PM with answers to the following:

What experience do you have playing Newbie games?
What makes a good IC? Are they necessary?
What changes would you make to the current IC/SE/Newbie structure?
What areas for improvement do you see with the Newbie Queue in general?
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:19 pm

Post by nancy »

In post 75, PenguinPower wrote:Correct assumption. Happy to hear your ideas on what that should be, and also from you/mhsmith0/anoyone else on appropriate action for replace outs.
I would actually suggest a flexible prod system, like 1st prod=36 hours, 2nd prod=24 hours, 3rd prod=24 hours. It's a bit more work for the mod but newbie games are really really really easy and low-maintenance so I don't think that's an issue. Am sure you already know this but it's important to keep in mind that even 1 inactive player in a 9p can stagnate the game, and 2 or god forbid 3 inactive slots and the game is basically unplayable for everyone else. And activity kind of becomes more important with shorter deadlines.

As far as replacement stuff is concerned, if I were newbie listmod I would probably do something like this:

- If you replace out of a newbie game, you aren't allow to rejoin the queue until that game has ended.
- If you have replaced out of your last 3 newbie games, you are suspended from rejoining the queue for a month (effective from when the 3rd game you replaced out of ends).
- You must have completed your last 3 newbie games in order to be eligible for IC.

Force replaces that were not the fault of the player being replaced would obviously not apply for any of that.

I think that would keep people who habitually replace out of games away from the queue and would also encourage people who teeter on the edge of that habit from replacing out if they were considering doing so. The biggest problem I think with the way replacements on this site are handled is that you have people sub out of one game and join another literally within the same day, and nothing is done to prevent this. I've seen it happen in the newbie queue before as well, where someone will shrugsub out of a game they don't like or don't have time for and /in to the queue the next day or the next week.

I think at the same time you would probably need to give the mod more control over toxicity and give them tools to prevent toxicity from ruining games, so that people who replace out of a game because they were being abused or couldn't handle an awful game environment aren't punished, and probably allow those players to appeal to the listmod (you) if they replaced out of a game for those kinds of reasons and are prevented from rejoining the queue even though that wasn't really their fault or in their control at all. That would mean more work for the listmod though which is obviously not ideal I guess.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:33 pm

Post by ruru »

In post 81, ruru wrote:(and the information they leak)
Examples of how bad this is
etc.
In post 82, T-Bone wrote:Modkills would be way more punitive to the remaining players than a replacement.
Well yes

I think if you commit to playing a team game and don't play, you deserve high loss equity, you deserve to get flamed by the remaining players, and if you do it a non-negligible portion of the time you should also not be allowed in future games

I think this comes from a difference in "competitive"/"for fun" mindset. My mindset is highly competitive and like I said I don't expect most people to agree with me on it. (Also modkilling AFKs probably isn't practical in newbie queue in particular because of how many newbies flake and I realize that too)

But I think the rest of my post still applies anyway because replacements are pretty objectively bad whether or not modkills are subjectively better
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:38 pm

Post by nancy »

In post 85, ruru wrote:you deserve to get flamed by the remaining players
What.

Like actually what.
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:45 pm

Post by T-Bone »

In post 85, ruru wrote:Well yes

I think if you commit to playing a team game and don't play, you deserve high loss equity, you deserve to get flamed by the remaining players, and if you do it a non-negligible portion of the time you should also not be allowed in future games

I think this comes from a difference in "competitive"/"for fun" mindset. My mindset is highly competitive and like I said I don't expect most people to agree with me on it. (Also modkilling AFKs probably isn't practical in newbie queue in particular because of how many newbies flake and I realize that too)

But I think the rest of my post still applies anyway because replacements are pretty objectively bad whether or not modkills are subjectively better
I promise you, players who are flaking are unaffected by silly things like "high loss equity". You don't flake on a game because you care about it. The flaking player will harbor no bad feelings. The rest of the players will suffer for something beyond their control.

This is a non-starter. Modkills are not used on mafiascum except in extreme circumstances. Replacements do not qualify as an extreme circumstance.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:50 pm

Post by ruru »

*shrug*

It's just my personal opinion. I wasn't trying to propose modkilling AFKs anyway

I mentioned it to demonstrate how I feel about replacements by comparison
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:50 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

When do these changes go live?
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:55 pm

Post by T-Bone »

But I'd like you to understand the consequences so when you start moderating your own games, you won't ruin everyone's experiences by refusing to replace inactive players.
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:59 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 88, ruru wrote:*shrug*

It's just my personal opinion. I wasn't trying to propose modkilling AFKs anyway

I mentioned it to demonstrate how I feel about replacements by comparison
You're welcome to start moderating and implement a rule like this, once you can mod theme games. I'd make VERY sure everyone knows about the rule though. It's been done before: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=BaM but it didn't really stick because replacements are going to happen and ruining the vast majority of games isn't really something people are keen to do.
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:05 pm

Post by ruru »

Mm, interesting

I guess I would probably only want to do it if there was a large enough subculture that agreed that it was a good idea? Because like how mafia games are played in my ideal universe has nothing to do with modding a game that other people enjoy given certain cultural expectations

It's more like I would want to be a player in a game with no replacing
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:12 pm

Post by PenguinPower »

In post 89, OkaPoka wrote:When do these changes go live?
Still listening to feedback, but the plan is with the next game.
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:20 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 75, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 74, nancy wrote:Am assuming you would change prod ranges and such. I can foresee a potential problem getting replacements in time but hopefully that won't happen too much. Maybe it would be a good time to implement some other things to punish people for replacing out, but I don't know how that's possible since it's only 1 queue.
Correct assumption. Happy to hear your ideas on what that should be, and also from you/mhsmith0/anoyone else on appropriate action for replace outs.
Queue bans.

Replace out as an SE without good reason and yiure queue banned for 2 months
Do it again, 4
Etc.

Maybe start at 1 instead of 2 idk, maybe give a single free pass

But the SE replace out rate is awful and a terrible example to set for newbies, and is in partuclar a thing which deserves attention.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:39 pm

Post by Ircher »

I think even a month is a bit on the harsh side for the first time, dependent on how we define good reason.

I think if we are going to implement harsh queue bans for replacing out, it should go:

First Time: Warning; Can’t join new newbie games for 24h (to prevent people from immediately signing up for a new game which is kinda silly.)
Second Time: 1 Week Ban from joining new newbie games.
Third Time: Banned from joining new newbie games until the conclusion of the last newbie game you replaced out of.
Fourth and Subsequent Times: Banned from the newbie queue for three months.

If a person has played at least two newbie games in the last month and not replaced out of them or any other game in the last month, they regain a chance. (Eg: If this next time would be the third time but the former has occurred, it is counted as the second time they replaced out).

I would also like to note that the above should mainly apply SEs; I’m all in favor of harsher actions against ICs that set a bad example by replacing out without a good reason.
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:30 pm

Post by Sunlit Diamond »

Wanted to address the modkill thing even though it's probably a non-issue...

People being modkilled for any reason other than gross violation of the rules would really bother me.

From the being replaced side: I replace out because I DO care about the games I'm in and I'm cognizant that for whatever reason, I can't play to win condition for longer than I can reasonably ask my co-players to wait for me to return (usually it's a 7-10 day time frame where work pummels me six ways from Sunday, and then I'm free again). I replace out so my team can have someone who CAN commit.

From the "someone else is replacing out" side: For the most part we do not get to choose who we play with, especially in the newbie queue, so why should my team pay the price for another player's inability to commit to the game? I would end up feeling pretty resentful and not having fun. (I think it would also encourage a certain level of out of game animosity to people who replace that would make future games difficult for them.)



I do think the time between person disappearing and person being replaced is too long, even with 14 day deadlines. If it drops to 7 that definitely needs to be reduced by some quantity. I get the arguments about 24 hours, but 36 still seems too long. Can't win, I suppose.
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:43 pm

Post by nancy »

In post 96, Sunlit Diamond wrote:From the being replaced side: I replace out because I DO care about the games I'm in and I'm cognizant that for whatever reason, I can't play to win condition for longer than I can reasonably ask my co-players to wait for me to return (usually it's a 7-10 day time frame where work pummels me six ways from Sunday, and then I'm free again). I replace out so my team can have someone who CAN commit.
You should only join games where it's not going to be a problem for you to be absent for that long of a period, or figure out a way to squeeze in enough time here and there in that time frame so that you can meet activity requirements at least enough to not be replaced. I've played mafia games while working ~120 hours and was working ~80 hours until this week, so I can appreciate how difficult it is. Is really something you need to think about before you join the game, imo.
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:25 pm

Post by Sunlit Diamond »

In post 97, nancy wrote:
In post 96, Sunlit Diamond wrote:From the being replaced side: I replace out because I DO care about the games I'm in and I'm cognizant that for whatever reason, I can't play to win condition for longer than I can reasonably ask my co-players to wait for me to return (usually it's a 7-10 day time frame where work pummels me six ways from Sunday, and then I'm free again). I replace out so my team can have someone who CAN commit.
You should only join games where it's not going to be a problem for you to be absent for that long of a period, or figure out a way to squeeze in enough time here and there in that time frame so that you can meet activity requirements at least enough to not be replaced. I've played mafia games while working ~120 hours and was working ~80 hours until this week, so I can appreciate how difficult it is. Is really something you need to think about before you join the game, imo.
I do think about that before I join games, which is why I haven't played in something like five months. The problem is that those surges in busy (and in my mental capacity to deal) are pretty close to unpredictable. I know better than to join a game when I'm *already* busy, but...for example, right now my work is dead as a doornail and looks like it will stay that way until September. Do I cross my fingers and jump into a game since it looks quiet, or do I just unilaterally declare I can't do something I enjoy because I MIGHT get busy?

Sorry, but the former is going to win.
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:13 pm

Post by Plotinus »

If we get into weighing whether a replaceout was legit or not and only replacements that aren't for good enough reasons are punished, then that leaks some information about the nature of the replacements. For example, in the last game I modded, two players were replaced because one posted their role PM and the other saw it before it was hidden. One of the players was banned -- but this wasn't announced until after the game, of course. The other player was allowed to start a new newbie game right away because he shouldn't be punished for his honesty. If we had a strict rule about replacing out that was enforced, then the fact that the other player is allowed to join a new game without punishment reveals something about the nature of the replacement.

If we expand the definition of legit to allow for stuff like sudden illness or whatever then players are forced to disclose something they may consider private or we have to figure out where we draw the line -- sudden serious illness is ok but not sudden headcold? sudden grounding from the internet by angry parents? final exams coming up, which couldn't have been anticipated because how was any student supposed to remember at the beginning of May that finals would come at the end of May?

In the last game I modded, a newbie replaced out because they were bored. It was kind of a lame reason because boredom is transient and is an easy problem to solve: just do stuff to make stuff happen, interact with other people more, start a conversation, suddenly you're not bored anymore yay. Also, with 2 week deadlines, if you're bored you can go do something else for a day and come back and find something has happened. But on the other hand, part of trying a new activity is figuring out if you like it or not, and sometimes you realise a few days into it that you don't. You tried a new thing but it's not your thing. You only have 24 hours each day, no more and no less. You only have so much free time. Should you spend your free time doing something you have realised isn't fun? Why? And, furthermore, suppose we have a system that punishes people for replacing out. The person who has realised mafia isn't fun and replaces out of their newbie game, closes the browser tab and never comes back, do they notice that they have been punished? Do they care? Does it have any deterrence? This is like telling a child who doesn't want to eat his broccoli, "if you don't eat your broccoli, you can't have any more broccoli tomorrow!" The child is going to say "uh, okay, great!"

We already have a system in place to punish people who only replace out of scum slots or whatever. We already have a system in place to punish people who excessively join and replace out of games. If you read the ban thread you'll see the listmods do that when it gets egregious. I don't think we need a system to punish ordinary levels of flaking, especially in the population of people we're trying to retain.
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