big poll abt normal preferences

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schadd_
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:57 pm

note that these are phrased in the negative: u check the box if u DONT want/like that thing

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1N_ntuJ ... S6kee3zCJ8

go! :)
Last edited by schadd_ on Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:11 am

gl pointed out to me that there isnt a way to communicate that u think sk should be normal but u dislike it so i added a poll
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:12 pm

results so far. keep voting!!!!!

"defies my normal expectations (ignoring established rules)"
>60:40 imbalance10/13
SK7/13
multiball10/13
greylist3/13
reminding PRs when they holster6/13
<8day deadline3/13
duplicate PRs among town0(!)/13
more than half PRs among town3/13
100% PRs among mafia0/13
variance in mafia kill ability8/13
transparent/alignment indicative setup pattern5/13
transparent/AI moderator design habits2/13
confirmed setup absences2/13
confirmed setup presences4/13
me as mod4/13
"i generally dislike"
cop5/13
gunsmith2/13
pgo9/13
town millers6/13
ascetic townies1/13
general negative utility0/13
ascetic mafia2/13
mafia ninja6/13
traitors7/13
high power setups5/13
low power setups1/13
people being shitty12/13
implosion3/13


i noted the 0/13 for duplicate roles. cfj (an expert) thought that it was explicitly not allowed as did i for a while. it might even be, at least in practice with the nrg. i know that in kidney mafia (which was a kind of openly broken game) it was considered that rolestopper was a counterclaim for a doctor. but nobody seems to have a problem with it explicitly.

few people took issue with greylist, which is somewhat unsurprising and also shows people understood the "it doesnt have to be allowed" thing

imbalance, sk, multiball being abnormal were unsurprising, maybe a little bit higher than i expected even but i knew they were unpopular. irregular mafia killing is fair, it messes up a lot of norms about vigilantes/protectives. i'd like it personally if there were a dynamic around "this game is not confirmed to have 1 kill per night" that allowed e.g. higher ratio games with extra kills (i dont think it would be much of a thing in minis since that's tough to do in 2:11 i think?) or lower ratio games with few/no kills. i don't think the one kill per night norm is problematic though, i just think it's annoying as a designer to always have vigis be confirmed town.

5/13 shows where i'm coming from with cops. theyre kinda unfun. majority dislike of pgo and traitor i could have seen coming, 6/13 for ninja as well. i'm unsure as to whether pgo is normal but there is a good argument for making it not be.

people being shitty to each other works as a convenient demonstration that people were still reading all of the answers at the bottom.

questions:
somebody who voted against irregular mafia kills, can u share ur thoughts

for people who voted cop, do you more dislike playing the role as town or playing against it as scum? i think it's not very exciting to get the role and yucky to play against it.

same question abt traitor (but with aligns reversed) (i havent really played with one)

the person who didnt vote against people being shitty, :(?
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:43 pm

anyway judging from the results:

i plan to no longer include cop, traitor or ninja in any setups i make. somewhat unrelatedly i will include automatic daytalk in all of them (which i sort of meant to put in the poll but i don't think people would by and large have any issue with that)

i also unrelatedly won't include psychologist for my own reasons (it's a goofy role imo, idk. i don't like that it has a contradictory directive for who perpetrates kills than detective)
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:06 am

im removing the sk poll bc im worried people think thats the poll and they dont see the other one

the vote was 9-11 agree-strqongly agree that serial killer is a bad role
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:41 am

who that took this poll likes people being shitty
"invisibility is actually braindead" -- RadiantCowbells

people should get beat up for stating their beliefs

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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:34 pm

"defies my normal expectations (ignoring established rules)"
>60:40 imbalance18/21
SK12/21
multiball16/21
greylist4/21
reminding PRs when they holster9/21
<8day deadline5/21
duplicate PRs among town0/21
more than half PRs among town6/21
100% PRs among mafia1/21
variance in mafia kill ability12/21
transparent/alignment indicative setup pattern7/21
transparent/AI moderator design habits5/21
confirmed setup absences3/21
confirmed setup presences4/21
me as mod5/21
"i generally dislike"
cop7/21
gunsmith3/21
pgo13/21
town millers6/21
ascetic townies1/21
general negative utility4/21
ascetic mafia3/21
mafia ninja7/21
traitors10/21
high power setups6/21
low power setups2/21
people being shitty20/21
implosion6/21
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:28 pm

i guess what i basically expect from a normal game is:

a) reasonably balanced

b) it should be very obvious how roles interact with each other

c) certain fundementals are in play: scum know who each other are (barring things like traitors), scum can kill at night, there are fewer scum than town, etc

i don't really like sks but i don't think they're not normal so long as it's been announced as a possibility

i odn't really mind if 'new' / greylisted roles are in a normal game so long as:

a) the possibility of such roles being included has been announced beforehand

b) role PM is posted upon flip

c) it's abundantly clear how that role interacts with other roles - like 'mason tracker' isn't explicitly whitelisted i think (or maybe it just became so in the newest update, i don't remember), but like it's very obvious what it does and how it interacts with everything else and i think a role like that is reasonable in a normal game

i wouldn't care if normal games had flavor; like that doesn't affect the 'normal-ness' of a game for me

i guess the defining factor of a normal game for me is that players should have reasonable knowledge as to what's possible in the game and that the game is reasonably balanced.

if you announce beforehand that the game will be a blitz game, or that it's possible that there will be an sk, i don't care if a normal is a blitz or has an sk so long as players know what they're getting into

mechanics that change the fundemental structure of the game i wouldn't consider normal - i guess i would prefer something like multiball to be announced beforehand but that kinda straddles the line for me and i wouldn't consider it non-normal if it showed up in a game. annoying, sure, but it's been established that multiball is possible in the normal queue so even if i didn't want multiball i wouldn't consider it non-normal since it's known to be a possibility

(i haven't played in the normal queue since the new guidelines have been implemented so maybe multiball was taken out? I don't remember; my opinion on multiball is based on the old normal guidelines)

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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:21 pm

Multiball/SK were taken out from Mini Normals, but not from Large Normals.

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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:05 pm

Are the shift and Caps Lock keys on your computer broke?

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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:51 pm

oh good question. hold on lemmie check

no theyre not
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:05 pm

I think the best way to handle something like the mod confirming that there's no cops or what have you would be to allow games where 1)there are no townies, but 2)each player is an informed role, and 3)the information each player receives is that there are no cops, and 4)the sample role PM is an informed townie

basically, that sort of information should be in role PMs, but if it is in everyone's role PM, I think it's fine

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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:10 pm

that is way less elegant to me especially since the point is that people can be like "oh i hate those roles" or "hey i like those roles" in advance of the game and choose whether to join

i'm just making explicit a mod meta that i would definitely have regardless of whether i had this blacklist and it would really suck if somebody fakecaimed cop only to learn "oh lmao schadd doesn't put cops in his setups... lmao"

also hello welcome to my thread
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:13 pm

also (thinking emoji thinking emoji) the blacklist of people being shitty (thinking emoji thinking emoji) is already in most people's rules and not in PM (thinking emoji thinking emoji) so how come you don't have a problem with that? (thinking emoji)
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