What is truly Bastard - and what is not?

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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:36 am

Bastard things- unexpected things that can screw up the gameplay, betray trust(unforseeable mod lies), cause horrible anti-good play results(unannounced game-ending Jester, Cult...)
where is the line?
Would you say that a Godfather is Bastard?
A Jester when its presence is known?
Is Cult bastard(I'd say YES)?
Mod lies in the Role PM?
Is the lack of role or alignment randomization bastard, especially with flavor?
A reflexive Bulletproof Vigilante that is self-aligned as Serial Killer type, in the same game as a Town Vigilante?

What does, in your eyes, meet the threshold of warning the players that there might be weird roles about(bastard games need normally to be announced as such)?
And which one of these do you not want to see in any game you play, ever; and which ones would you be ok with?

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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:19 am

hey

This is the description that is wildly accepted on MS for bastardness:

cults, mid-game alignment changes, moderator lies that cannot be reasonably anticipated (for example, Godfather, Tailor, Miller, Ninja, and mechanics like that are generally fine. Telling someone they are a reflexive doctor when they're actually a PGO is not), secret win conditions, un-divulged non-randomness in player role/alignment generation, direct moderator influence during the game

So

Would you say that a Godfather is Bastard? No
A Jester when its presence is known? No
Is Cult bastard(I'd say YES)? Yes
Mod lies in the Role PM? Yes
Is the lack of role or alignment randomization bastard, especially with flavor? Yes for Alignment but No for Roles unless if mod lies about it or keeps it hidden. A Upick, for example, is not bastard. or if the game has some sort of picking phase or ability assigning phase that is based on the players, flavors or even not pregames randomness it's not bastard - unless if the moderator doesn't clarify publicly that's how it's getting handled.
A reflexive Bulletproof Vigilante that is self-aligned as Serial Killer type, in the same game as a Town Vigilante? No

But not being bastard doesn't mean something is Ok. The true objective is fairness for players and their fun so these mechanics should all be meaningful in the setups that have them. For example, Jesters are usually very not fun and a game host should be really hesitant when putting something like that in a game.

I hope I helped :]
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:40 pm

What if people know for sure that a cult will definitely be part of the game?
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:52 pm

All sort of alignment change mid-game - known and unknown are considered bastard on mafia scum.

Personally, I think knowing you're alignment might change doesn't change anything about how seeing it changed midgame, is bastard. For example, you play so hard to lead town and then you're culted and now you must try to make them loose. No matter if culting mechanics is public or not, that is still the same unpredictable change of goals midgame that is what bastard games mostly are.
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:28 pm

i think i read somewhere that alignment changes are bad because they punish you for playing good
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:32 pm

I wouldn't call cult games "bad" just "different" and as they have elements that interfere with game integrity they work better with players who know stuff like that might happen midgame (are warned about the bastardness)
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:11 pm

a better word would probably be "disliked"
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:00 pm

In post 4, Invisibility wrote:i think i read somewhere that alignment changes are bad because they punish you for playing good


More like it conflicts with the "play to your wincon" rule. Why bother playing to a Town wincon when you can try getting recruited instead? What if you were playing to the Town wincon and got recruited making your previous efforts a waste at best and against your new wincon at worst?
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:16 pm

I don't think preannounced cults are so much bastard as they are just a bad mechanic.

What I'd call bastard is pretty much either moderator lies or moderator partiality, either in assisting one faction or in e.g. assigning roles based on who they want to have them. I'm okay with this not matching the official MS definition for the purpose of game announcements, since I think the spirit of this question is more "what do you find bastard."
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:33 pm

The "bastard" term I think is bad, as it gives a negative connotation when that's not necessarily warranted. I've played balanced Cult games that were otherwise normal, and it seems a shame to label it "bastard." I would like to split the definition, like Umlaut's definition can be "bastard" (as mod bias/lying seems actually fitting of the label) and cults and the rest can be "unconventional" or something. Just spitballing.
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:13 pm

Ok, so, we all know my stance on this, and its that cults aren't bastard—which admittedly started as a semi-joke, but I actually don't really see cults as bastard per say.

I've played Town of Salem for 2+ years, which has a lot of bastard mechanics, (or, what we'd consider bastard), which I'm perfectly fine with. Cults aren't bastard to me only because I'm so used to them. I'm used to having the "you were town, now you're not" type thing. It's such a different dynamic that it makes it fun for me. It's a very interesting shift from the norm.

Now, the line of bastard/non-bastard? When you (as the mod) lie to the players. That's bastard, no questions asked. You're removing one whole important aspect from the game if you allow the mod to lie: The trust between the mod and player. Now, roles like Godfather or Framer or Ninja are completely different to me. That's an expected lie. If there's a ninja in the game, I expect the mod to lie to me about the ninja visiting someone. That's just normal.

Now, do I consider godfather or jester bastard? No. Godfather is an expected lie. We expect that if there's a godfather in the game, that they'll appear as innocent to cops.
Now jester? If the jester ends the game upon being hung, yea, that's kinda bastard imo. If the jester just gets a free win after getting hung, that's alright with me.

Like I said earlier, mod lies in general (if they can't be reasonably anticipated) aren't fun. That's the bastard point for me. I don't find it fun when the mod purposefully lies to you with no real reason to. That's why in any of my bastard games, I don't lie to you unless I'm forced to (like cop checking godfather). I don't find that fun to watch. Will I leave off information and tell you I left it off? Yes, because then you know you don't have the complete picture.

Now, the lack of randomization in role / alignment especially with flavor, I don't really see that as bastard per say. If the mod uses it to put one of their friends as a really OP role, then yes, that's 100% bastard. If it's something like "Lovers mafia but the mod picks the lovers", I don't see that as bastard. It adds the aspect of trying to figure out who the mod would pick as lovers, adding more dynamics to the game.

SK aligned Reflexive BP Vigi in same game as normal vigi? No, not at all. If kills are ambiguous, then not at all. If kills aren't and both are marked off as vigi, then, ehhhh, I could see the arguments for both sides, but I don't really see that as being bastard. It's just being an asshole is all.
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:19 am

In post 9, Prof Fridays wrote:The "bastard" term I think is bad, as it gives a negative connotation when that's not necessarily warranted. I've played balanced Cult games that were otherwise normal, and it seems a shame to label it "bastard." I would like to split the definition, like Umlaut's definition can be "bastard" (as mod bias/lying seems actually fitting of the label) and cults and the rest can be "unconventional" or something. Just spitballing.


The term bastard has no negative implication - it's just a class of not normal games that has several factors that can affect the game integrity midgame
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:21 am

Also the cults = midgame alignment changes

you can't for certain say what you were doing day 1 is actually beneficial for your final win condition = game integrity breach = bastardness

It's not about what someone like or dislike and it has nothing to do with certain game balances. It's about the nature of "lie" in it and how deeply it can intefer with the mindsets and the natural process of the game
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:23 am

Also preannounced cults is just a more specific way of announcing bastardness before game starts (instead of announcing the game is bastard which can have several other meanings you just announce that it has a cult)
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:01 pm

I play the yugioh TCG now.
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:19 pm

I would counter that if I knew that there was a cult in the game, then I would not play that pro-town unless I was reasonably sure that I will be killed before being recruited. I mean, there is this whole class of secret role games where part of the challenge is figuring out which team you are or are going to be on. I agree that we should have an extra class of games where you know beforehand that your alignment can change.

Actually, why not just use the existing category "not Normal"? VOTE: Allow Cult-like factions in team THEME games as long as it is announced before the game starts that it exists.

Now, the real question would be something like "50% chance of there being a Cult; 50% chance of there being a faction of four members that neither recruits nor kills". I would certainly never play in that game -- I want to know 100% the existence of a cult if there is one, and 100% the nonexistence of a cult if no cults exist.


Alisae, what is that trying to accomplish? Apparently the problem there is account weirdness, not cults.
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:47 pm

In post 15, 2 718281828459 wrote:Actually, why not just use the existing category "not Normal"? VOTE: Allow Cult-like factions in team games as long as it is announced before the game starts that it exists.

thats already allowed.

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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:10 pm

cult should never not be considered bastard
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:04 am

The category for cult games is "bastard games" "not normal"

again, a game being bastard doesn't mean the game is bad or that it's not fun or not balanced. The term bastard means there might be several elements that will affect the game integrity in a way that is not predictable by players.

The bastardness of cult is not because cult is not announced in game x. it's because of the wincondition change midgame So you never truely know if you're actually playing toward your wincondition or not. Announcing the game has cult will allow people to know what are they signing up for which is what should happen all the time imo. Announcing there is cult in game is way better announcement than generally announcing this game is bastard cause there are several other elements that are bastard.
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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:59 pm

Aah, I meant to write "theme" games, not "team" games.
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:05 pm

What I mean is, it seems like Cults should not have to be in the same category as things like "every flip and investigative role returns the opposite of what it claims, and the Doctor and Vigilante appear to be the other role" where you expect something and find it not to be true. With known cults, you get the "you are town" PM but you know that with every step you could end up being recruited and find your work for nought.

Or just play to always lynch either yourself, town, or the Cult Leader (thus, you can never be recruited).
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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:11 pm

Another question about alignment changes.
What about if you have "no alignment" until you are given an alignment later? Examples:
1. In a multiball game, you are told that you will be drafted to a random scum team, starting night 2.
2. Your role is "uncertain": if the Mafia attack you in the first three nights, you become a Mafia. If that does not happen then you become locked-in town.
3. Divide the players into 4 groups: Red, Green, Blue, and Neutral. The first three colors each have a factional attack kills members of a specific faction (Red can kill Green, Green can kill Blue, Blue can kill Red), and irreversibly recruits a Neutral. (If a Neutral dies by lynch, then that player simply loses.)

In any of these cases, you would know that it is happening, and until you get drafted you receive no alignment.

(3 is specific because I might actually want to run that some time.)
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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:58 am

are alignment changes totally in control of the player being changed bastard? for example,

"You are a town doctor. At night, instead of performing your action you may choose to become a neutral survivor instead"

chosen alignment change instead of forced.

discuss?
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:00 am

In post 22, vonflare wrote:are alignment changes totally in control of the player being changed bastard? for example,

"You are a town doctor. At night, instead of performing your action you may choose to become a neutral survivor instead"

chosen alignment change instead of forced.

discuss?


I don't see that as bastard actually.

You're saying that you don't wanna be that alignment anymore, meaning that you really aren't being forced to work against your wincon IMO.
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:24 am

In post 22, vonflare wrote:are alignment changes totally in control of the player being changed bastard? for example,

"You are a town doctor. At night, instead of performing your action you may choose to become a neutral survivor instead"

chosen alignment change instead of forced.

discuss?


there is one bastard part of it that still remains:

for every other player, their content before the alignment change was a from a town mindset and their content from after the alignment change is from a survivor mindset. Now their wincondition and agenda is changed so using their previous posts to understand what they were doing and what are they is technically useless. But the other players won't know that's possible if the game is not announced at Bastard. Technically for mechanics like this, I suggest completely open or semi-open setup or mechanics or just announcing bastardness just to be safe.
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