What is truly Bastard - and what is not?

[Jake The Wolfie]

pagetop lol

The difference between players not playing optimally and the game designed to be played sub-optimally is that if the players did play 100% optimally like they would in a normal game, they would lose.

[Ramcius]

pagetop lol

The difference between players not playing optimally and the game designed to be played sub-optimally is that if the players did play 100% optimally like they would in a normal game, they would lose.

Playing optimally in normal game doesn't guarantee a win, playing optimally in bastard doesn't mean loss, it only increase chance for it to happen. But that's all theoretical and let's be real, "optimal play" is a hoax, with limited information you can't reasonably find optimal plays, you can think optimal plays for what info you have, but it's not the optimal play

[Jake The Wolfie]

Here is how I define "Optimal Play"

Optimal play are the players playing as if they had all knowledge given by the moderator about the game, along with all events.

[Ramcius]

Here is how I define "Optimal Play"

Optimal play are the players playing as if they had all knowledge given by the moderator about the game, along with all events.

Then optimal play includes knowledge of game being bastard, so new optimal play is adjusted for bastard roles and bastard elements that can be present, so it's still an optimal play in the end, because you're choosing best play in given circumstances, you can't call it suboptimal

[Jake The Wolfie]

Here is how I define "Optimal Play"

Optimal play are the players playing as if they had all knowledge given by the moderator about the game, along with all events.

Then optimal play includes knowledge of game being bastard, so new optimal play is adjusted for bastard roles and bastard elements that can be present, so it's still an optimal play in the end, because you're choosing best play in given circumstances, you can't call it suboptimal

If the moderator lied to all players and it turns out that the town actually had to kill itself off to win, and the same with mafia, then the real optimal play radically changes. However, the players won't know about this because the moderator lied to them.

[Ramcius]

Here is how I define "Optimal Play"

Optimal play are the players playing as if they had all knowledge given by the moderator about the game, along with all events.

Then optimal play includes knowledge of game being bastard, so new optimal play is adjusted for bastard roles and bastard elements that can be present, so it's still an optimal play in the end, because you're choosing best play in given circumstances, you can't call it suboptimal

If the moderator lied to all players and it turns out that the town actually had to kill itself off to win, and the same with mafia, then the real optimal play radically changes. However, the players won't know about this because the moderator lied to them.

Bringing 1 example that doesn't apply to most bastard games doesn't prove your point at all

[Jake The Wolfie]

So most Bastard games don't have moderator lies?

[Firefly7]

This "optimal play" definition talk is confusing

Jester is bastard because town gets punished for lynching a scummy player. Town's wincon is to lynch all the scum, so them being punished for lynching a scummy player is bad. It turns town's wincon from "lynch all the people acting scummy" to "lynch all the people acting scummy, except for the person who is doing it intentionally". If a town member is playing to that first wincon, then they are playing badly, with no way to know that they are doing so until the Jester flips.

[Ramcius]

So most Bastard games don't have moderator lies?

Most bastard games don't have mod lies about everyone's wincons. So there will be only few players affected by mod lie about their wincon, would you play subpar just for slim chance that mod gave you fake rolecard and your wincon isn't what it says? Even if you play subpar and you got fake rolecard, you don't know what is your actual wincon is, so you might get screwed anyway. Cult don't even fit here - who would recruit you, if you play subpar?

[Ramcius]

This "optimal play" definition talk is confusing

Jester is bastard because town gets punished for lynching a scummy player. Town's wincon is to lynch all the scum, so them being punished for lynching a scummy player is bad. It turns town's wincon from "lynch all the people acting scummy" to "lynch all the people acting scummy, except for the person who is doing it intentionally". If a town member is playing to that first wincon, then they are playing badly, with no way to know that they are doing so until the Jester flips.

Let me stop you here - town's wincon isn't "lynch all scummy people", it's lynch all scum, which is very different as scum not always act scummy and town often act scummy

[Jake The Wolfie]

What is Scum then?

[Firefly7]

Let me stop you here - town's wincon isn't "lynch all scummy people", it's lynch all scum, which is very different as scum not always act scummy and town often act scummy

Yes, "scummy" wont always be scum, but im using the word here as most likely to be scum. if a person is the most scummy, they are the most likely to flip mafia, and as such should be lynched.

With no jester, town should lynch the scummiest person each day.

With a jester, town should not always lynch the scummiest person, because the jester is going to be intentionally scummy.

Because the way town should play is changed, and town doesnt know that it has been changed until a Jester is flipped, Jester is bastard.

I used the word "scummy" instead of "scum" in the first place because im pretty sure you would have said "well, jester isnt scum, so town should be playing the same way anyway". Im just trying to make the point that town has to play at a fundamentally different level when they have to adjust for intentional scumminess, which they shouldnt have to deal with without being warned beforehand.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jeater is scum because it doesn't have to win with town.

[Firefly7]

Jeater is scum because it doesn't have to win with town.

Oh, different definitions then. My home community uses it as “must die for town to win”.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Is a survivor that promises to help the mafia win scum under this? No, but they might as well be.

[Ramcius]

What is Scum then?

Non-towns, whose existence is preventing town from winning. Jester isn't scum, Jester's existence doesn't prevent town from winning

[Ramcius]

Let me stop you here - town's wincon isn't "lynch all scummy people", it's lynch all scum, which is very different as scum not always act scummy and town often act scummy

Yes, "scummy" wont always be scum, but im using the word here as most likely to be scum. if a person is the most scummy, they are the most likely to flip mafia, and as such should be lynched.

It's not most likely, it only works with new/bad scum players. Scum are more than capable of not being scummiest person in the game

[Firefly7]

It's not most likely, it only works with new/bad scum players. Scum are more than capable of not being scummiest person in the game

Scummiest = the player the town members think is the most likely to flip scum.

The town members can and will be horribly incorrect, but that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be lynching the person who they think is the most likely to flip scum.

[Zachrulez]

Town Mole: The mole is given access to the identities of the scumteam and implied to be a part of the scumteam when in actuality their alignment is actually pro-town. Mod hangs hat on the idea that the scum were never informed of the role and alignment of the other members who had access to QT.

Thought I'd put this one out there for consumption in 2020 because this one actually happened and was run in a game before. (With a mod warning that the game

might

have mechanics that are considered bastard.

MIGHT.

)

[Jake The Wolfie]

Let me stop you here - town's wincon isn't "lynch all scummy people", it's lynch all scum, which is very different as scum not always act scummy and town often act scummy

Yes, "scummy" wont always be scum, but im using the word here as most likely to be scum. if a person is the most scummy, they are the most likely to flip mafia, and as such should be lynched.

It's not most likely, it only works with new/bad scum players. Scum are more than capable of not being scummiest person in the game

Evolved scum means town needs to evolve with them, which makes the scumtells more obvious. A good scum isn't one that doesn't get caught, it's one that sets up a failsafe for when they are.

[callforjudgement]

Town Mole: The mole is given access to the identities of the scumteam and implied to be a part of the scumteam when in actuality their alignment is actually pro-town. Mod hangs hat on the idea that the scum were never informed of the role and alignment of the other members who had access to QT.

Thought I'd put this one out there for consumption in 2020 because this one actually happened and was run in a game before. (With a mod warning that the game

might

have mechanics that are considered bastard.

MIGHT.

)

I think this one has happened at least twice in the past.

It is likely to fail utterly if an experienced setup reviewer is in the game: it's a role so powerful that either its mere existence distorts the rest of the setup to the point that either the game is massively unbalanced, or else measures are taken to balance it, but those measures have to be so extreme that it's really obvious what they're guarding against.

(Silly idea for a bastard game: put those measures in the game

without

the Town Mole and see how long it takes the scum to nightkill each other looking for them. I don't recommend ever running this (nor running a game with a Mole in, for that matter), but it's still amusing to think about.)

[Jake The Wolfie]

Side note: Would it be bastard to run a game that has no bastard mechanics, but the Mod still said it did?

[Isis]

If the mod guarantees at least one bastard mechanic, and it's a moderator lie that cannot be reasonably anticipated so it's bastard. If you stretch the word "mechanic" to include miscommunications in signups you do get a cute paradox.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I would imagine it would be a mod lie, as no bastard mechanics were introduced. Even if it does cause a paradox, it is ultimately bastard because it causes the players to play differently than thry wpuld in a normal game.