What is truly Bastard - and what is not?

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Post Post #25  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:24 pm

In post 24, Frozen Angel wrote:
In post 22, vonflare wrote:are alignment changes totally in control of the player being changed bastard? for example,

"You are a town doctor. At night, instead of performing your action you may choose to become a neutral survivor instead"

chosen alignment change instead of forced.

discuss?


there is one bastard part of it that still remains:

for every other player, their content before the alignment change was a from a town mindset and their content from after the alignment change is from a survivor mindset. Now their wincondition and agenda is changed so using their previous posts to understand what they were doing and what are they is technically useless. But the other players won't know that's possible if the game is not announced at Bastard. Technically for mechanics like this, I suggest completely open or semi-open setup or mechanics or just announcing bastardness just to be safe.


Uhhh... this role is useless. If you activate it and die, then you lose. If you do not activate it and still die, then you may still win if town wins.

But the argument is invalid. For example, what about replacements? The replacement will play differently from the other.
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Post Post #26  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:44 pm

it's not about playing differently

its about having different motivations/final goal/wincondition.

and the arguement is still very valid.
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Post Post #27  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:48 pm

Bastardness is about in-game integrity breach. Its about if players have fair chance in figuring the game out. changing someone wincondition is bastard because of that regardless if they do it willingly or unwillingly.
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Post Post #28  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:03 pm

i agree with fa
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people should get beat up for stating their beliefs

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Post Post #29  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:58 pm

A doctor that can become a survivor isn't fully useless. In fact, it's fairly powerful: if they ever end up in mylo or lylo, they can convert at that moment, claim, and start voting random players until there's a scum quickhammer for the mafia+survivor win. So the game balances as though the role were scum, even though it can win with town if town does well.

I don't think it's bastard on that player themself: they know from the start that helping town and helping scum are both potentially viable paths to victory, and are fully informed in making their choice. However, it may be somewhat bastard on the rest of the players because it's hard to guess and effectively impossible to balance around.
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Post Post #30  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:31 pm

yeah exactly
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Post Post #31  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:39 am

OK, but:
(1) No one responded to my post about delayed roles.
(2) For deciding to change your role willingly, you will probably play as though both are possible. Like the doc that can become a survivor, how could someone tell that apart from a scum who was just really good at faking town. Although I guess if you had no idea that it was in the game...
(This reminds me of a miccro I just completed where I was a serial killer and thought for sure that there would be mafia, especially considering I was 1-shot BP, but there was none.
(3) "Its about if players have fair chance in figuring the game out." But then what if you just have a closed game with lots of Normal roles but it is near impossible to figure out and scum might think it is MyLo with a Doctor-proof kill and play accordingly only to get jailed.
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Post Post #32  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:47 am

In post 12, Frozen Angel wrote:Also the cults = midgame alignment changes

you can't for certain say what you were doing day 1 is actually beneficial for your final win condition = game integrity breach = bastardness

It's not about what someone like or dislike and it has nothing to do with certain game balances. It's about the nature of "lie" in it and how deeply it can intefer with the mindsets and the natural process of the game

One more thing. When you play mafia, most of your play is uncertain. When you lynch someone, you do not know if it is towards your win condition or not until after the lynch. A doc who protected a known cop may seem to be useful until it messes up the parity in a forced-lynch game. A jailer tries to save a probable lynch target in night 3v2, but unfortunately that target was an important PR and town loses the LyLo.
Having there be a chance of an alignment change is just another layer of uncertainty just like with any complication.


Here is my post about delayed alignments, for reference:
In post 21, 2 718281828459 wrote:Another question about alignment changes.
What about if you have "no alignment" until you are given an alignment later? Examples:
1. In a multiball game, you are told that you will be drafted to a random scum team, starting night 2.
2. Your role is "uncertain": if the Mafia attack you in the first three nights, you become a Mafia. If that does not happen then you become locked-in town.
3. Divide the players into 4 groups: Red, Green, Blue, and Neutral. The first three colors each have a factional attack kills members of a specific faction (Red can kill Green, Green can kill Blue, Blue can kill Red), and irreversibly recruits a Neutral. (If a Neutral dies by lynch, then that player simply loses.)

In any of these cases, you would know that it is happening, and until you get drafted you receive no alignment.

(3 is specific because I might actually want to run that some time.)
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Post Post #33  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:38 am

I think midgame alignment changes that the player can control are not bastard.

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Post Post #34  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:37 pm

In post 32, 2 718281828459 wrote:Having there be a chance of an alignment change is just another layer of uncertainty just like with any complication.

It is not just another layer of uncertainity.
It is a layer that harms the dayplay of town like none other. Because it makes town reads from earlier days potentially useless - a horrible thing for scumhunting. In any game where you can assume there might be midgame alignment changes the reads will suffer as a result.
But then what if you just have a closed game with lots of Normal roles but it is near impossible to figure out and scum might think it is MyLo with a Doctor-proof kill and play accordingly only to get jailed.
Here is a hint: Usually people massclaim before or at MYLO. If scum is so dumb and quickhammers without knowing the setup and get jailed then they deserve this. To quickhammer in MYLO, there need to be two stray votes from town...

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Post Post #35  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:26 pm

And no one even begins to try to answer my question about delayed alignments.

Games with known alignment changes are about finding changes in behavior. Someone who is always relaxed suddenly becomes very tense => lynch them. Someone who played moderately scummy all game but consistently => probably town or else started out in the cult. Lynch if scummy enough, else leave intact. Someone who has played pro-town all game and suddenly claims real-life events have messed up their play => be suspicious (they could be lying about the real-life events) especially if the new play looks very scummy.

We already have replacements. What if (in a non-cult game) someone who was a really good scum player no one ever would suspect needs replacement, and the replacement is horrible at playing scum and gets lynched that very day?
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Post Post #36  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:26 pm

In post 35, 2 718281828459 wrote:And no one even begins to try to answer my question about delayed alignments.

Games with known alignment changes are about finding changes in behavior. Someone who is always relaxed suddenly becomes very tense => lynch them. Someone who played moderately scummy all game but consistently => probably town or else started out in the cult. Lynch if scummy enough, else leave intact. Someone who has played pro-town all game and suddenly claims real-life events have messed up their play => be suspicious (they could be lying about the real-life events) especially if the new play looks very scummy.
We already have replacements. What if (in a non-cult game) someone who was a really good scum player no one ever would suspect needs replacement, and the replacement is horrible at playing scum and gets lynched that very day?

For delayed alignments see below.
But basically, what you described is part the problem. The margin of error becomes much wider. Sure, sudden and extreme changes overnight will be seen, just like scumslips. But any player worth it will be careful to avoid that. And with minor changes in behaviour, the margin of error becomes extreme because that can be reasoned on daily mood, the state of the game which inconveniently changes with every night, just like alignments - and then there is the starting cult who needs to be found as well, with other methods. The next problem with games with alignment changes is that they are notoriously difficult to balance, even by experts, and that is another reason why those reside in the bastard category.
In post 21, 2 718281828459 wrote:Another question about alignment changes.
What about if you have "no alignment" until you are given an alignment later? Examples:
1. In a multiball game, you are told that you will be drafted to a random scum team, starting night 2.
2. Your role is "uncertain": if the Mafia attack you in the first three nights, you become a Mafia. If that does not happen then you become locked-in town.
3. Divide the players into 4 groups: Red, Green, Blue, and Neutral. The first three colors each have a factional attack kills members of a specific faction (Red can kill Green, Green can kill Blue, Blue can kill Red), and irreversibly recruits a Neutral. (If a Neutral dies by lynch, then that player simply loses.)

In any of these cases, you would know that it is happening, and until you get drafted you receive no alignment.

(3 is specific because I might actually want to run that some time.)

1. The problem with this is not so much the alignment change from scum to specific scum but the fact that there is no team at all the first two days(searching teams becomes a nightmare) and that with uneven numbers, you have to gimp one scumteam to possibly 1(or 2 depending on the game) without the fault of the scum who remains(as they couldn't even try to help their teammate). If its fully random then it is even more atrocious, e.g. 4v2 scum. My advice: Don't run this.
2. That's basically a cultafia with certain restrictions on conversion and kills. Nothing new. Although at least the recruitment stops at some point.
3. That's not a game of Mafia. It belongs into Mish Mash/LSG. And I would strongly advise against running it.

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Post Post #37  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:38 am

In post 31, 2 718281828459 wrote:OK, but:
(1) No one responded to my post about delayed roles.
(2) For deciding to change your role willingly, you will probably play as though both are possible. Like the doc that can become a survivor, how could someone tell that apart from a scum who was just really good at faking town. Although I guess if you had no idea that it was in the game...
(This reminds me of a miccro I just completed where I was a serial killer and thought for sure that there would be mafia, especially considering I was 1-shot BP, but there was none.
(3) "Its about if players have fair chance in figuring the game out." But then what if you just have a closed game with lots of Normal roles but it is near impossible to figure out and scum might think it is MyLo with a Doctor-proof kill and play accordingly only to get jailed.


1) I answer after this
2) That is if you know you have that option since the start of the game. Still, others won't know a double agent win condition thing that can backstab them is on the table if the game is not bastard and they can't hunt for it. Mafia is all about how good are players in deducing what alignment are others. if you remove this ability from them by increasing the factors without letting them know when you're not running mafia- that's why you must announce that your game is bastard before it runs.
3) Balancing games are another subject. I never said bastard games are bad. Unannounced bastard games are bad. Unbalanced games are worse than that. On another note, The game setting should not always be figurable. That's not the point of announcing the game is bastard. For most bastard games even if you announce its bastard the game setting is not figurable.
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Post Post #38  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:44 am

In post 32, 2 718281828459 wrote:
In post 12, Frozen Angel wrote:Also the cults = midgame alignment changes

you can't for certain say what you were doing day 1 is actually beneficial for your final win condition = game integrity breach = bastardness

It's not about what someone like or dislike and it has nothing to do with certain game balances. It's about the nature of "lie" in it and how deeply it can intefer with the mindsets and the natural process of the game

One more thing. When you play mafia, most of your play is uncertain. When you lynch someone, you do not know if it is towards your win condition or not until after the lynch. A doc who protected a known cop may seem to be useful until it messes up the parity in a forced-lynch game. A jailer tries to save a probable lynch target in night 3v2, but unfortunately that target was an important PR and town loses the LyLo.
Having there be a chance of an alignment change is just another layer of uncertainty just like with any complication.


Here is my post about delayed alignments, for reference:
In post 21, 2 718281828459 wrote:Another question about alignment changes.
What about if you have "no alignment" until you are given an alignment later? Examples:
1. In a multiball game, you are told that you will be drafted to a random scum team, starting night 2.
2. Your role is "uncertain": if the Mafia attack you in the first three nights, you become a Mafia. If that does not happen then you become locked-in town.
3. Divide the players into 4 groups: Red, Green, Blue, and Neutral. The first three colors each have a factional attack kills members of a specific faction (Red can kill Green, Green can kill Blue, Blue can kill Red), and irreversibly recruits a Neutral. (If a Neutral dies by lynch, then that player simply loses.)

In any of these cases, you would know that it is happening, and until you get drafted you receive no alignment.

(3 is specific because I might actually want to run that some time.)


This is a very wrong way of arguing. Yes, the mafia is an uncertain game but just until moderator rands people alignment. The game is not uncertain after randomizing it's just that players are in blank state and are not informed about the certainties. That doesn't mean you won't know or that you can't try to win the game. Also, that's way different than randomly changing something midgame and that's why moderators can not have direct influence in-game midgame. It's totally ok if a moderator is putting a random element in the game before the game starts when designing it. they can't add something random to the game on their own will cause that will destroy the certain state behind everything that players were trying to figure it out (what I called an integrity breach).

Regarding the other question You having no alignment means "pregame" for all purposes. there is no point in playing the game till you know how can you win it. (or at least to know some hints about how can you win the game)
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Post Post #39  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:45 am

I'll talk about the rest of the posts in the thread in the next few hours. I have to go out atm so sorry!
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Post Post #40  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:45 am

OK, clearly my examples of delayed alignments were awful.

About the one where you got recruited if attacked in the first three days, that role was only going to be given to 1-2 players, with the rest being locked-in town or locked-in scum. Although I guess then the game has other problems with it depending heavily on the randomness of hitting one of those targets. But even then, that is simply a badly-designed game, which is not what we are talking about.

Also, in all "delayed alignment" games that I was considering, you have a temporary goal of surviving. So, if you get lynched before you receive an alignment, you just plain lose. People may read your lack of effort as scummy and lynch you, and if you claim, they might be suspicious of you if you do get drafted as scum.

Something that might be more balanced is this: you join the same team as the day-1 lynch victim, and you get a vanilla role. (That does not mean the day-1 lynch is useless -- hitting scum can give information and hitting town might destroy a useful PR.)
EDIT: But let's not get into the specifics of one kind of delayed-alignment setup.
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Post Post #41  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:15 am

In post 40, 2 718281828459 wrote:OK, clearly my examples of delayed alignments were awful.

About the one where you got recruited if attacked in the first three days, that role was only going to be given to 1-2 players, with the rest being locked-in town or locked-in scum. Although I guess then the game has other problems with it depending heavily on the randomness of hitting one of those targets. But even then, that is simply a badly-designed game, which is not what we are talking about.

Also, in all "delayed alignment" games that I was considering, you have a temporary goal of surviving. So, if you get lynched before you receive an alignment, you just plain lose. People may read your lack of effort as scummy and lynch you, and if you claim, they might be suspicious of you if you do get drafted as scum.

Something that might be more balanced is this: you join the same team as the day-1 lynch victim, and you get a vanilla role. (That does not mean the day-1 lynch is useless -- hitting scum can give information and hitting town might destroy a useful PR.)
EDIT: But let's not get into the specifics of one kind of delayed-alignment setup.

All delayed alignment games are per definition imbalanced or at least extremely swingy, and very likely unfun. And often not mafia games at all.
I have no problems to put these firmly in the bastard category, because you can practically not make a good game out of these. Show me one balanced, fun example of a delayed aligment game and we can talk about this. Until then...

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Post Post #42  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:42 am

In post 40, 2 718281828459 wrote:OK, clearly my examples of delayed alignments were awful.

About the one where you got recruited if attacked in the first three days, that role was only going to be given to 1-2 players, with the rest being locked-in town or locked-in scum. Although I guess then the game has other problems with it depending heavily on the randomness of hitting one of those targets. But even then, that is simply a badly-designed game, which is not what we are talking about.

Also, in all "delayed alignment" games that I was considering, you have a temporary goal of surviving. So, if you get lynched before you receive an alignment, you just plain lose. People may read your lack of effort as scummy and lynch you, and if you claim, they might be suspicious of you if you do get drafted as scum.

Something that might be more balanced is this: you join the same team as the day-1 lynch victim, and you get a vanilla role. (That does not mean the day-1 lynch is useless -- hitting scum can give information and hitting town might destroy a useful PR.)
EDIT: But let's not get into the specifics of one kind of delayed-alignment setup.


So they are a survivor at start and they get their alignment after on. thats pretty much just a normal alignment change and nothing else and its bastard for every other reason I mentioned. and again being bastard is not bad. its just a type of game that must be clarified before start signing up.
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Post Post #43  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:53 pm

In post 42, Frozen Angel wrote:So they are a survivor at start and they get their alignment after on. thats pretty much just a normal alignment change and nothing else


No, because you know for sure that your "survivor" role is temporary. With a cult, you may get recruited on day 1, day 5, right before LyLo, or never.
And trying to survive for the entire game is much different than trying to survive for the first three rounds or so. This is not a normal alignment change at all.
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Post Post #44  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:15 pm

Yes I can agree that it's less bastard since its not as ambiguous alignment change as cult is
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