Are endgamed players dead

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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:36 pm

I feel that I'm probably in the minority for this, but I'm strongly in the camp that endgamed players are not dead; I wouldn't move losing town players into the dead spoiler, and I wouldn't mark games which I lost in LyLo as town that I died (though this has never happened to me). In spite of wanting standardisation for game OPs, this is something I disagree with.

Here's why I rule endgamed players as still alive: they are not dead yet. Yes, it's true that they will eventually be dead once the game plays out and the Mafia kill all the remaning townies. However at the point the game ends, those townies are still alive. The game has ended because an outcome that the Mafia must win has been achieved, not because all the townies have died. In other words, consider yourself watching a video of a full mafia game where it is played out until one faction is completely eliminated. Once Mafia = Town, we can pause the video here because the outcome of the game is certain. However, at the time of pausing, the doomed town players are not dead yet.

I would like to bring an analogy here: chess. Being endgamed in Mafia is analogous to being checkmated in chess. The goal of chess is to prevent your king from being captured. Once you have been checkmated, this means the opponent is guaranteed to be able to capture your king, and the game is called here because the outcome of the game is certain. Have you already lost? Yes. Has the king been captured and taken off the board? NO. I think the analogy between being endgamed and being checkmated can be drawn here, and while I don't think this analogy automatically means that the situation is identical between chess and Mafia, I believe similar principles apply here that endgamed players are not dead, and this example helps to illustrate my point.



On a related but different topic, I believe the Mafia's wincon is "Kill all the non-Mafia players", and not "Mafia control 50% of the players", and the latter was only derived as a simplification of the former rule due to them being identical in the absence of vigs and docs etc. While I don't have a problem with the latter wincon, I see it as a variant win condition for weird setups, and is used in normals only so stuff like Goon vs Town Roleblocker or Goon vs Bulletproof Townie are ruled as Mafia wins rather than a draw/stalemate. In cases where the wincons are identical, I would use the former wincon even though it is more complicated, simply because it is the standard wincon.
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:13 am

Sorry if I'm being obtuse - is there a reason for the question? If it's just semantics, I'm not sure it really matters too much. If it becomes game related through some kind of mechanic, I would probably suggest being very clear about what you mean when explaining the game's mechanics.

If a player reaches endgame and cannot achieve a win condition, it doesn't really matter whether they're alive or not, I don't think... they've lost.


With respect to mafia wincons, they vary across games for balance reasons. It usually depends on mod preference + mechanics + setup really.

For example in a nightless game, if the mafia'a win condition is "kill all townies or have nothing be able to stop this", is 3:3 a win? or a stalemate? in a game with a vigilante, too, having a win condition of parity is a pretty important balancing factor.

there's a fair bit to consider on that front. but let me know what your angle is with the endgamed = dead question if you want a second opinion.

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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:56 am

Yes, in the end, this is something that is ultimately just flavour. However, this is something I find interesting to discuss because many people will have different viewpoints.

I think it’s fairly obvious based on what I wrote that I believe endgamed =/= dead?

I don’t feel 50% rule for mafia win should Normal, even though it rarely ever makes a difference and solve problems like ties. However I do think it may be necessary for certain theme games for balance.
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:41 am

Endgamed=dead - usually.
It means that the Mafia went open and killed the rest of the townies in broad daylight.

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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:41 am

In post 0, BulletNLynchproof wrote:I'm strongly in the camp that endgamed players are not dead
In post 0, BulletNLynchproof wrote:I believe the Mafia's wincon is "Kill all the non-Mafia players", and not "Mafia control 50% of the players"

So if endgamed players are not dead, but the Mafia must dead everyone to win, then you believe endgaming should not be a thing that takes place at all?
If not then that's a highly contradictory pair of opinions.
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:51 am

Endgaming is just a forgone conclusion to the results (scum have the majority), it's skipping the remaining days and nights where the rest of town dies.
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:05 am

In post 4, Toomai wrote:
In post 0, BulletNLynchproof wrote:I'm strongly in the camp that endgamed players are not dead
In post 0, BulletNLynchproof wrote:I believe the Mafia's wincon is "Kill all the non-Mafia players", and not "Mafia control 50% of the players"

So if endgamed players are not dead, but the Mafia must dead everyone to win, then you believe endgaming should not be a thing that takes place at all?
If not then that's a highly contradictory pair of opinions.

That was a summary; the full win condition is “Kill all the non-Mafia players, or nothing can prevent the same”. Usually, once the Mafia achieve a majority, the game will result in a scum win no matter what.

However, in cases with equal scum and town going into Night with a town Doctor and Vigilante, they can both prevent a kill from scum and kill town, putting town at majority again, allowing them to regain vote control and kill all the scum. As unlikely as town can win from here, this opportunity must be given. However, the second wincon will rule the game as an immediate scum win without letting the Night play out, which is wrong.
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:19 am

In post 5, Cheery Dog wrote:Endgaming is just a forgone conclusion to the results (scum have the majority), it's skipping the remaining days and nights where the rest of town dies.

No. Endgame is ending the game when the game’s outcome is certain without playing out the game.

Consider a Mountainous 2:7 Mafia game where town lose on Day 3. All moderators who bother updating the OP post-game will write “Player, Townie, endgamed Day 3” or similar somewhere in the OP. Pay attention to “endgamed Day 3”; this shows that the townies have already lost on Day 3. The game does not autojump to the point where all townies would eventually be killed by the Mafia, or it would say “died Night 3”, “died Day 4” for the 2 endgamed townies.

Ergo, being endgamed is not being killed.
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:12 am

Cheery is correct, endgaming is merely expediting the process of the other players being killed, just like separating modkilled players is clutter and entirely unnecessary, so is separating endgamed players

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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:28 am

In post 8, Not_Mafia wrote:Cheery is correct, endgaming is merely expediting the process of the other players being killed, just like separating modkilled players is clutter and entirely unnecessary, so is separating endgamed players

In post 7, BulletNLynchproof wrote:
In post 5, Cheery Dog wrote:Endgaming is just a forgone conclusion to the results (scum have the majority), it's skipping the remaining days and nights where the rest of town dies.

No. Endgame is ending the game when the game’s outcome is certain without playing out the game.

Consider a Mountainous 2:7 Mafia game where town lose on Day 3. All moderators who bother updating the OP post-game will write “Player, Townie, endgamed Day 3” or similar somewhere in the OP. Pay attention to “endgamed Day 3”; this shows that the townies have already lost on Day 3. The game does not autojump to the point where all townies would eventually be killed by the Mafia, or it would say “died Night 3”, “died Day 4” for the 2 endgamed townies.

Ergo, being endgamed is not being killed.

Please read countered arguments before you post.

Also, I do not separate endgamed players, I put them in the alive spoiler:
BulletNLynchproof wrote:
Spoiler: Alive
  1. Dunnstral, endgamed Day 4
  2. Eragon, survives and wins!


Spoiler: Dead
Carcalilly, lynched Day 1
northsidegal, killed Night 1
Wh4t, lynched Day 2
schadd_, killed Night 2
RadiantCowbells, lynched Day 3
Performer, killed Night 3
Skygazer, lynched Day 4

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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:45 am

That makes even less sense

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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:35 pm

I normally use the "will inevitably win" win condition for scum. That means simulating how the rest of the game would play out (which normally involves all the townies dying).

If the scum are defined to win at 50%, then the remaining townies would still be alive.

There are some special cases (e.g. 1 Mafia Goon vs. 1 Bulletproof Townie) where I have a special case in the rules to resolve the endgame situation. In my case, the townie is counted as dying (rather than just losing) just in case it happens to be multiball. In a single-ball game, though, it would be reasonable to count the townie as losing but not dying (after all, scum can neither lynch nor nightkill them).
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:50 pm

In post 8, Not_Mafia wrote:Cheery is correct, endgaming is merely expediting the process of the other players being killed, just like separating modkilled players is clutter and entirely unnecessary, so is separating endgamed players


This is accurate.
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:05 pm

In post 5, Cheery Dog wrote:Endgaming is just a forgone conclusion to the results (scum have the majority), it's skipping the remaining days and nights where the rest of town dies.

^ this is basically correct imo

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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:37 pm

You're still welcome to leave endgamed players outside the dead spoiler though, just don't have an alive spoiler.
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:20 pm

When the game ends I move everyone into a single "results" spoiler. There's no real sense in having them separate at that point.
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:01 pm

In post 10, Not_Mafia wrote:That makes even less sense
That's how I handle it and how it should be done in my opinion.

The point of an alive/dead spoiler is to not reveal the outcome of the game without clicking it, yes?
So actions should be taken which prevent it from being easy to tell.

I specify in my alive/dead spoilers the number of players contained within said spoiler. (spoiler=alive (3), spoiler=dead (10), etc.) Because I specify the number of people alive and the number of people dead, if I moved endgamed players to be in the dead section, it would almost always universally spoil the outcome of the game simply by the list of players left alive (for instance, 1 player? That's gonna be a scum win guaranteed).

Whereas by NOT moving the endgamed players, it's more ambiguous--say, a 3p lylo happens; 2 in the living spoiler at game over could mean EITHER town wins OR that town was endgamed. Whereas if you have it listed as "alive (1)", people automatically are going to know what the result was.

This applies outside of 3p lylo, too, because of game types/sizes and the day phases in the game. If you know the game ends on D4 in a 13-player game and see only three players listed as alive...then you know it was a scum win; if you instead see six, it's more ambiguous and can very easily be a town win.
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pm

Or just remove the numbers once the game ends like I do and nearly everyone else does, it's only relevant information when the game is ongoing

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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:12 am

I really wish people came in to actually counter the arguments that I have listed rather than just stating their view on the matter disregarding everything I say.

I'll repeat: The mafia win condition is "You win when the Mafia kill everyone else, or nothing can prevent the same." This means that anyone suggesting that the game is fast forwarded to the point where all the townies are dead is wrong.

Yes, this means that if the game is simulated out and will lead to a Mafia victory no matter what they do, then all townies die and the Mafia win. No, this does not mean that those townies in question are dead, because that is only a simulation; the game is not actually played out.
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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:14 am

i'm not understanding the significance of this distinction
Ask yourself, what would Keyser Soze do?

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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:18 am

The game ends when the Mafia can inevitably kill everyone else. This does not mean that the Mafia have actually killed everyone else.
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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:21 am

i don't get why this matters in any real sense.

unless u want to write some fan stories about mafia games.
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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:22 am

@Annadog40
Ask yourself, what would Keyser Soze do?

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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:22 am

@Vonflare
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:22 am

@Mina
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