Are endgamed players dead

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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 1:47 am

Post by themilkcartonkid »

From a personal perspective, I would see losing as a result of dying being entirely different than losing as a result of endgaming. Also, the above conversation is why this distinction between dead or alive in endgame is significant. A mod who thought of endgame as pause would be more likely to agree that survivors who are "endgamed" have won, whereas I don't know how a survivor wins if "endgamed" means dead.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 3:05 am

Post by Varsoon »

1. There is no time between. Being 'endgamed' just means that the conclusion of victory for Mafia is inevitable, and so the game is ended as if that victory had been achieved.
2. There is definitely a distinction between being killed during one of the game's night phases and being endgamed; in both instances you are dead, though.

The major hiccup in considering end-gamed players 'dead' is when certain abilities trigger on death that could prevent a mafia auto-success. Games that are designed well (Mafia wincons being based on flat ratios rather than 'killing all the town' helps) do not run into this problem.

A survivor is not end-gamed.
A survivor that is alive when the game ends receives a victory and, notably, does not die at endgame. They are a survivor, after all.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 3:09 am

Post by Varsoon »

The definition for end-gamed that I've settled on and accepted: The result of a game-state where the non-mafia players are unable to, through their votes and roles alone, eliminate the mafia faction--all non-mafia players are killed in order to reflect the inevitable outcome of the game.
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 3:10 am

Post by Varsoon »

Take all that with a grain of salt, as recent events have reflected that I am definitely illiterate and incapable of properly evaluating game expectations based on clear rulesets.
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 3:56 am

Post by BNL »

In post 51, Varsoon wrote:1. There is no time between. Being 'endgamed' just means that the conclusion of victory for Mafia is inevitable, and so the game is ended as if that victory had been achieved.
Yes, there is. Townies don't automatically and immediately die due to inevitably being fated to die.
To be clear, I'm talking about the game timeline, not the real life timeline.
The major hiccup in considering end-gamed players 'dead' is when certain abilities trigger on death that could prevent a mafia auto-success. Games that are designed well (Mafia wincons being based on flat ratios rather than 'killing all the town' helps) do not run into this problem.
If the players have on death effects that prevent Mafia from winning, the game shouldn't end there and still needs to be played out. If town has already lost, either because the wincon is 50% or they were the last townie, the Mafia have already won and there is no need to play that effect out.

If you need to trigger on-death effects based on townies being endgamed, you're probably modding it wrong.


Oh, and the fact that Survivor can win with Mafia is proof that endgame townies are considered alive, or the role wouldn't make sense.
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 3:57 am

Post by BNL »

In post 52, Varsoon wrote:The definition for end-gamed that I've settled on and accepted: The result of a game-state where the non-mafia players are unable to, through their votes and roles alone, eliminate the mafia faction--all non-mafia players are killed in order to reflect the inevitable outcome of the game.
Why do the non-mafia players need to die to symbolize that the Mafia have won? Especially in the case when the Mafia are not able to fully eliminate them, in which case the fast forward analogy does not even apply.
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 5:11 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 54, BNL wrote:Oh, and the fact that Survivor can win with Mafia is proof that endgame townies are considered alive, or the role wouldn't make sense.
Why
would
the Mafia want to kill a Survivor? The Survivor doesn't block their win condition. If they don't want to kill a Survivor before the game ends (and they typically don't), they shouldn't want to kill the Survivor afterwards either.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 5:20 am

Post by BNL »

The survivor wins because he is alive at the end of the game, just like the townies which the Mafia haven't killed yet.

I don't know what else to say, it's just extremely intuitive for me that townies who haven't actually died yet are not actually dead.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 5:24 am

Post by yessiree »

I offer my theory.

The moment the game state transitions to ENDGAME, the game state is taken and put in a black box where it cannot be observed from the outside world unless it is opened.
Each day, the mafia has a 50% chance to murder all surviving townsfolk, and 50% chance to do nothing.
Until someone opens the box and looks inside, there is no way of knowing whether the endgamed players are dead.
And when someone does peek inside, the players are either dead or alive.

If we repeat this experiment enough times, the endgamed players are dead 50% of the time, and alive 50% of the time.
In effect, before the outcome is observed, the endgamed players are said to be in a quantum superposition where they are both dead and alive. And the act of peeking inside forces one outcome to be true.
So if you peek inside the black box of the endgame state, then your curiosity killed the endgamed players
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 5:26 am

Post by BNL »

I don't think anything anyone says here is going to convince me.

I just really want people to understand my perspective: I see that once an outcome is determined, the game is permanently paused and called, without being actually played out.

I see the end of game as the state the game was in when the game was called, not what the game would have been if it was played out.

Do you, or anyone in the thread, even understand what I'm saying here, and my perspective on what the end of the game is?

Because I don't see myself being convinced that endgamed players are dead, ever, without the assurance that people know what I see as the end of the game.


Maybe it'll be a bit clearer if there was a distinction between "end of the game" and "endgame"
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 8:09 am

Post by Varsoon »

I get that you're saying End-Game is a state that doesn't necessarily reflect player deaths because those deaths were not played out by actual player action, but, as moderator, I treat them mechanically the same (for the most part).
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 8:13 am

Post by Varsoon »

Guess I'm gonna just return to this post I made earlier and settle on 'It depends on the moderator',
In post 35, Varsoon wrote:I'm of the mind it entirely depends on the win condition present.

I often use equal numbers sort of wincons, so in my games, the last town players aren't dead, but they have lost. I do this mainly because I think if you're a vig or a bulletproof townie left at the end of a game you've otherwise lost, your role doesn't save you from having lost the game of mafia.

However, I am under the impression that most games use a 'No remaining town players or nothing can prevent this' wincon, in which case, yes, the end-gamed players ARE dead because 'nothing can prevent this' endgaming is just hitting a fast-forward button to an eventual outcome.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 8:15 pm

Post by yessiree »

In post 59, BNL wrote:I just really want people to understand my perspective: I see that once an outcome is determined, the game is permanently paused and called, without being actually played out.
that's like pausing a movie during the credits and asking if there are any post credit scenes
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 8:50 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Yeah, typically, when a mod says 'these players were end-gamed', that reads to me as shorthand for 'were killed because it was the only possible outcome based on numbers'.
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2019 9:40 pm

Post by Cheery Dog »

At endgame everyone comes back to life.
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Thu May 09, 2019 1:43 am

Post by Blackberry »

I think the answer is it's mod discretion:

A mod can determine they're killed off by the Mafia going out in the open.

A mod can determine they are 'alive' but losers. I see nothing wrong with this, because a players alive or dead status has no impact at the conclusion of the game. I personally prefer the assumption they're alive, especially when the mod then goes on to create a sequel and reuses the 'alive' 'town players' to go on to play another mafia-game in a series! But that's just my personal preference, I don't think there's a wrong answer.
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Thu May 09, 2019 8:21 am

Post by Varsoon »

Yeah, from a flavor PoV I think it's more interesting if they are alive. From a mechanical PoV and considering the game as death or not is something the player really has to reconcile. It's obviously not a death by choice of the scum team, as you were kept alive until endgame for whatever reason, but it is a loss all the same and had the game played out the scum team would have killed you so it's big shrugs.
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Thu May 09, 2019 3:50 pm

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In post 59, BNL wrote:I don't think anything anyone says here is going to convince me.

I just really want people to understand my perspective: I see that once an outcome is determined, the game is permanently paused and called, without being actually played out.

I see the end of game as the state the game was in when the game was called, not what the game would have been if it was played out.

Do you, or anyone in the thread, even understand what I'm saying here, and my perspective on what the end of the game is?

Because I don't see myself being convinced that endgamed players are dead, ever, without the assurance that people know what I see as the end of the game.

Maybe it'll be a bit clearer if there was a distinction between "end of the game" and "endgame"
I don't think you ever explained why any of this matters. You only mentioned your wiki and which "category" you'd put what in. But that's it.

Nobody understands why you feel strongly about this distinction or why it's a hill you're trying to die on. After the game ends, it's just semantics.
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Thu May 09, 2019 4:05 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I can somewhat get the idea of feeling differently over "I am a player scum killed on N1' versus "I am a player scum intentionally left alive the whole game' but if I eat a loss, I eat a loss all the same.
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Sun May 12, 2019 2:16 am

Post by ajfefijsleifjsa »

I say endgamed players are dead.
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Thu May 16, 2019 4:55 pm

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And I say it's rabbit season.
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Fri May 17, 2019 1:20 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Duck theathon.
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