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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:51 pm
by Alisae
You die in the game you die in real life
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:28 am
by Gamma Emerald
In post 7, BNL wrote: In post 5, Cheery Dog wrote:Endgaming is just a forgone conclusion to the results (scum have the majority), it's skipping the remaining days and nights where the rest of town dies.
No. Endgame is ending the game when the game’s outcome is certain without playing out the game.
Consider a Mountainous 2:7 Mafia game where town lose on Day 3. All moderators who bother updating the OP post-game will write “Player, Townie, endgamed Day 3” or similar somewhere in the OP. Pay attention to “endgamed Day 3”; this shows that the townies have already lost on Day 3. The game does not autojump to the point where all townies would eventually be killed by the Mafia, or it would say “died Night 3”, “died Day 4” for the 2 endgamed townies.
Ergo, being endgamed is not being killed.
Gonna toss in my two cents
On my wiki I list Endgamed as it’s own event in the same section I list whether I’m Lynched, Nightkilled, or Survived. So there’s a distinction imo.
Another thing I want to mention is whether endgamed town live could also be a flavor thing. In the recently ended the worst Idea Mafia, I had the plan that if the scumteam won, the resolution of the flavor conflict would be the surrender of the town to the scumteam and submission to their will. This would result in the remaining town being spared.
I’m aware that’s probably not very important but I think it could add something.
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:31 am
by Gamma Emerald
In post 21, Firebringer wrote:i don't get why this matters in any real sense.
unless u want to write some fan stories about mafia games.
I mean I’d be down for this tbh
We need more people dedicated to spicing up games
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:15 pm
by Flubbernugget
A site dedicated to pointless arguments is declaring this argument as pointless
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:58 am
by Irrelephant11
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:58 am
by Irrelephant11
Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:24 am
by Persivul
Yes, they're dead. They should be in the dead section and noted as endgamed.
Regarding that spoiling the outcome of the game for people reading the thread later: The alive/dead sections should be and usually are hidden by spoiler tags. If a reader doesn't want things spoiled, they shouldn't be clicking on the spoilered dead sections anyway.
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:02 pm
by Zachrulez
The win condition's writing is generally pretty specific about them being dead in an endgame isn't it? I don't remember ever reading a role pm that said
capture
all the townies...
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:11 am
by mutantdevle
I agree with you hypothetically BNL. I see being endgamed as essentially a permanent pause in the game because the result is inevitable as you stated in the OP. That said, I do think that endgamed players belong in the 'dead' tab for the sake of post-game views of the thread. But I suppose that depends on a mod to mod basis considering I don't even use dead and alive spoilers in my own games.
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:30 am
by vonflare
Hello yes as a member of the Council of Mafia Fan Fiction I can objectively state that townies that are endgamed are dead and should be put in the dead spoiler however the player must list the game as 'survived' on their wiki.
Thank you for your attention.
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:01 am
by Varsoon
I'm of the mind it entirely depends on the win condition present.
I often use equal numbers sort of wincons, so in my games, the last town players aren't dead, but they have lost. I do this mainly because I think if you're a vig or a bulletproof townie left at the end of a game you've otherwise lost, your role doesn't save you from having lost the game of mafia.
However, I am under the impression that most games use a 'No remaining town players or nothing can prevent this' wincon, in which case, yes, the end-gamed players ARE dead because 'nothing can prevent this' endgaming is just hitting a fast-forward button to an eventual outcome.
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:03 am
by Varsoon
For purely flavor reasons, I also like the idea of the villains subjugating the culled population instead of just murdering the rest of them.
For stuff like Protomen Mafia, this was fairly integral to the flavor--the town represented an uprising of the population against oppressors; once properly quelled, that uprising would be done with and there would be survivors, but they lost.
Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:35 pm
by Kublai Khan
In post 20, BNL wrote:The game ends when the Mafia can inevitably kill everyone else. This does not mean that the Mafia have actually killed everyone else.
Honestly, the only reason mods stop the game with and endgame announcement is because mafia usually can't be trusted to majority vote themselves to victory. Even if they have 50%+ of the vote, some idiot will still be trying to bus their teammates or submit a NK on themselves for the lulz. Maybe we should let it run to conclusion and have the mafia kill the townfolk.
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:03 pm
by Mulch
Yeah, they are dead. The idea is that if the game played out the mafia would be able to kill/lynch them anyway, so there is no point in continuing the game. It's basically fast forwarding the game, so it's not like they "survive." Their deaths are just expedited.
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:22 pm
by callforjudgement
The reason mods stop the game when the result is inevitable is to avoid wasting the players' time playing it out. Mafia games last long enough as it is; you don't want to put a lot of commitments on your players' activity when there's no reason to do so.
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:42 pm
by funkybike1
For wincon purposes (Survivor/Jester/Unjester) they are alive. From a gameplay perspective the game is over so it doesn't matter.
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:44 pm
by Mulch
In post 40, funkybike1 wrote:For wincon purposes (Survivor/Jester/Unjester) they are alive. From a gameplay perspective the game is over so it doesn't matter.
This isn't true, but survivors/jesters/unjesters cannot be endgamed.
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:50 pm
by callforjudgement
Unjester and
Jester can both definitely be endgamed, it's right there in the definitions on the wiki.
A Survivor can be thought of as a player who wins from being endgamed. (In practice, mods tend to play a situation like 2 scum + 2 town + 1 survivor out, but IMO they shouldn't; this is just a straightforward scum win, as scum have the numbers to lynch all the townies – the survivor has no wincon reason to stop them.)
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:27 pm
by vonflare
In post 42, callforjudgement wrote:In practice, mods tend to play a situation like 2 scum + 2 town + 1 survivor out, but IMO they shouldn't; this is just a straightforward scum win, as scum have the numbers to lynch all the townies – the survivor has no wincon reason to stop them.
this is objectively wrong
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:11 pm
by callforjudgement
Playing for a town win in this situation would violate the Survivor's win condition, as they have no way to guarantee they won't be killed overnight (and scum won't believe they're a Survivor, because if they were they would vote with scum for the win).
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:21 pm
by Not_Mafia
Endgaming is done based on mechanical guarantees, not betting on people making the logical choice
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:28 pm
by callforjudgement
But endgaming in, say, the 2 scum 1 town case also relies on scum playing to their win conditions. If they didn't, they could quicklynch each other and then the remaining scum could NK themself overnight.
I don't see how 2 scum 2 town 1 survivor is any different; if every player plays to their win condition, scum will win, and if players aren't playing to their win condition, they're cheating.
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:31 pm
by Not Known 15
In post 44, callforjudgement wrote:Playing for a town win in this situation would violate the Survivor's win condition, as they have no way to guarantee they won't be killed overnight (and scum won't believe they're a Survivor, because if they were they would vote with scum for the win).
It depends if the number of scum is known, though.
If nobody but the scum know the number of scum then it does not violate the Survivor's win condition to keep silent(if they erroneously think that they are only facing one remaining scum), and the Mafia will keep silent if they don't know that there is a survivor.
Then it is not a mechanical endgame.
Other roles might also be at work even if the number of scum is known(e.g. a dayvig) that would make claiming Survivor dangerous or that could change majority during the day.
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:36 pm
by callforjudgement
OK, that's a good point. If the survivor doesn't know there's 2 groupscum, they'll stay silent and try to stay alive. So the Survivor can lose if they get lynched that day, and if scum is lynched that day instead, we reach an endgame where the survivor votes someone at random, asks the nonvoted player to hammer for the win, if they don't (say they're town who don't believe the Survivor claim) the Survivor changes vote and asks the other player for the win. So no faction has an inevitable win in that situation.
(Agonising over which faction to give the win to as a Survivor is one of the worst things you can do in a 1:1:1 ending, because it casts doubt on your Survivor claim. Just keep voting people until someone quickhammers.)
Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:10 am
by BNL
All right, some follow up questions:
1. What do you call the time between the Mafia having a certain victory, and the time where all townies are killed? I call this the endgame, and thus use "Players alive in the endgame" to refer to the surviving Mafia and endgamed townies, but the site disagrees with me, so what is the proper name for it?
2. I see "endgamed" as shorthand for "survived but lost". This shorthand is also used for e.g. traitors, jesters, and losing unlynched scum in White Flag. So why do endgamed townies have to be explicitly dead, and what would be a concise definition for "endgamed"?