"Don't look too town as scum"

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mhsmith0
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Post Post #75  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:02 pm

In post 74, Elsa Jay wrote:The point of being Scum is to be indistighable from your Town game.

Fwiw I disagree with this.

The point of scum is to achieve mislynches (technically it’s to achieve parity but the primary thing to do that is achieve mislynches)

Looking town can be helpful towards this goal... but it’s not enough. Looking town, in the absence of achieving anything else, will result in you being the last wolf lynched, as opposed to you winning.

I’m hardly one to talk since I suck at it, of course, but I always feel like having an eye on that ultimate prize and acting effectively towards that goal is the key. You can be flagrantly different from your town game... as long as you’re not lynched for it. Or as long as your death helps spew yiur teammates as town. Etc.

Conversely, you you look town while having everyone ignore you, and it helps you dodge pressure, but if they’re lynching your teammates while this happens, that’s bad.

In the proudest scum performance I’ve had, people praised me after the game for “looking town”. You know what I was proud of? Turning that town credit into a giant stack of mislynches. Earning town cred was nice. Spending it effectively was nicer :D
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RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #76  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:26 pm

the point of scum is to win

people irrationally overpraise scum on their ability to be 'towny' while underpraising them on their ability to close out games.
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #77  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:58 pm

Fwiw
If as scum I had the choice of taking a teammate who’d consistently achieve three shitty mislynches before getting lynched every single d4 I’d take that teammate
Every
Single
Time
(Unless I guess I have option B of an even better wolf bro but you know what I mean :P )
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Elsa Jay
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Post Post #78  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:13 am

Or take the teammate that actually survives MyLo and LyLo on multiple occasions.

You can get 5 mislynches in a row but it does jack if your all hung before you win.

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Post Post #79  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:56 am

In post 78, Elsa Jay wrote:You can get 5 mislynches in a row but it does jack if your all hung before you win.


Disagree. Three mislynches and one scum lynch is advantage scum. A scummate who can run like that is an asset. Can’t win a game by himself of course but you can’t achieve the fourth mislynch without achieving the first three :P
(But srsly if you go from like 10/3 to 3/2 but die yourself, that’s huge edge scum, then it’s just about teammates taking it home ftw)
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RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #80  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:28 pm

if all you can do is be towny and hope to reach endgame then you'll find yourself losing a decent 20%ish of games where that leaves you no path to endgame.
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #81  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:32 pm

your towniness also pays the least dividends in terms of continuing to add value to your teams as scum once people have gotten suitably wary of you
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

mastina
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Post Post #82  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:35 pm

In post 74, Elsa Jay wrote:The point of being Scum is to be indistighable from your Town game.
Actually, that mindset is the most self-sabotaging one to get in as scum.
The goal of scum isn't to look like your town self; the goal of scum is to endgame the town as quickly as is possible, which is usually served best by keeping yourself alive, and to keep yourself alive your greatest ally is usually to make others think you look town and it is easiest for them to think you look town if you are mimicking your towngame.

But as you can tell.

Indistinguishable scumgame from towngame is fourfold removed from scum's primary objective.

Looking town takes priority over mimicking your towngame; if you have a scummy towngame, then as scum mimicking it you are going to get lynched. Keeping yourself alive takes priority over looking town, so if you focus too much on looking town and give up on more pragmatic survival strategies, you are going to get lynched. And reaching endgame takes priority over keeping yourself alive, so if you keep yourself alive by power-bussing your entire scumteam...you are going to get lynched.

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Post Post #83  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:37 pm

I mean

Elsa Jay openly claims that he plays as town to try to be like his scum game

I'm not sure he's averse to self sabotage :P
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #84  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:42 pm

In post 83, RadiantCowbells wrote:Elsa Jay openly claims that he plays as town to try to be like his scum game
As has been discussed, that's actually a valid strategy, if the attempt to make your towngame be like your scumgame has the end goal of bettering your own towngame.

This is something that you get taught a lot. Like, say, in martial arts:
If your kick on one side is amazing, but is atrocious on the other, your teacher will tell you: "analyze what you are doing well on the side you're good on, and try to replicate it on the side you are bad on", more or less.

Same principle applies for alignments.
If you have a good scumgame but a really shitty towngame, analyze what in your scumgame is so good, and attempt to replicate it in your towngame.

(Vice-versa, where you have an amazing towngame and a shitty scumgame and yet as town try to mimic your scumgame? Sure yeah, that's self-sabotaging and is bad. Trying to bring your skill level up = good; trying to drag your skill level down = bad. But there's merit in mimicking scumgames as town if doing the former rather than the latter.)

mhsmith0
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Post Post #85  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:46 pm

In post 82, mastina wrote:Looking town takes priority over mimicking your towngame; if you have a scummy towngame, then as scum mimicking it you are going to get lynched. Keeping yourself alive takes priority over looking town, so if you focus too much on looking town and give up on more pragmatic survival strategies, you are going to get lynched. And reaching endgame takes priority over keeping yourself alive, so if you keep yourself alive by power-bussing your entire scumteam...you are going to get lynched.

also having your team reach endgame takes priority over you in particular reaching endgame or (necessarily) your team doing so as fast as possible (i.e. if you have a bad slot on your team that definitely will need to get bussed, plan for when is the best time to bus it rather than defaulting to "never")
tho of course if your teammates are obvscum there isn't much difference between you reaching endgame and your team reaching endgame :P
Spoiler:
let's just say that I've definitely done
Image
a few times in my career

Spoiler:
and of course I've NEVER been teh one to have my wolf bros do that to me
no never
of course not...
:P
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Persivul
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Post Post #86  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:34 am

In post 82, mastina wrote:Looking town takes priority over mimicking your towngame; if you have a scummy towngame, then as scum mimicking it you are going to get lynched.

Ideally, yes. But the fact is, on this site, if you play a scummy towngame long enough, then you don't get lynched for it, because meta.

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Post Post #87  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:36 am

In post 84, mastina wrote:If you have a good scumgame but a really shitty towngame, analyze what in your scumgame is so good, and attempt to replicate it in your towngame.

You can achieve a high win rate as scum merely by having a shitty towngame for long enough.

Part of the problem is that people equate high win rate with good scumgame, when that's not necessarily the case.

RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #88  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:43 am

layperson understanding of good scum play is meaningless lol
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #89  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:50 am

If you aren't consciously trying to reach a won endgame, you can't call yourself a good scum tbh

This is ignoring games where you have no choice but to play to survive to have any chance
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Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #90  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:54 am

In post 89, Ankamius wrote:If you aren't consciously trying to reach a won endgame, you can't call yourself a good scum tbh

This is ignoring games where you have no choice but to play to survive to have any chance


In Heroes, Math gave me good advice about “planting seeds”, rather than actually push an agenda. Unfortunately, he got overly enthusiastic stopped taking his own good advice.

Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it.

(I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~ the worst

Ankamius
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Post Post #91  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:56 am

In post 90, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 89, Ankamius wrote:If you aren't consciously trying to reach a won endgame, you can't call yourself a good scum tbh

This is ignoring games where you have no choice but to play to survive to have any chance


In Heroes, Math gave me good advice about “planting seeds”, rather than actually push an agenda. Unfortunately, he got overly enthusiastic stopped taking his own good advice.


That still counts, since he really only miscalculated the won endgame state and played his cards too quickly

Scum would have won that game otherwise since town was herpaderping
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Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #92  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:59 am

In post 91, Ankamius wrote:
In post 90, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 89, Ankamius wrote:If you aren't consciously trying to reach a won endgame, you can't call yourself a good scum tbh

This is ignoring games where you have no choice but to play to survive to have any chance


In Heroes, Math gave me good advice about “planting seeds”, rather than actually push an agenda. Unfortunately, he got overly enthusiastic stopped taking his own good advice.


That still counts, since he really only miscalculated the won endgame state and played his cards too quickly

Scum would have won that game otherwise since town was herpaderping


Yeah, that and we were also foiled by Drixx’s ingenious plan.

Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it.

(I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~ the worst

RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #93  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:02 am

I spent my whole life trying not to be careless. Women and children can be careless but not men.
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

Ankamius
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Post Post #94  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:02 am

In post 92, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 91, Ankamius wrote:
In post 90, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 89, Ankamius wrote:If you aren't consciously trying to reach a won endgame, you can't call yourself a good scum tbh

This is ignoring games where you have no choice but to play to survive to have any chance


In Heroes, Math gave me good advice about “planting seeds”, rather than actually push an agenda. Unfortunately, he got overly enthusiastic stopped taking his own good advice.


That still counts, since he really only miscalculated the won endgame state and played his cards too quickly

Scum would have won that game otherwise since town was herpaderping


Yeah, that and we were also foiled by Drixx’s ingenious plan.


And leaving two people who can sync up against scum creature
Spice is not just a flavor, it's a way of life.
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RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #95  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:04 am

That seems like an awful lot of mistakes :P
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #96  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:07 am

Like fucking creature has 11/8 scum wr

That's baseline

To be competent scum you gotta be far above that

And to be great scum you gotta be far above that.
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #97  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:08 am

I hope creature doesn't take offense to me using him as a case study :P
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #98  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:11 am

In post 95, RadiantCowbells wrote:That seems like an awful lot of mistakes :P


Scum is a lot harder when you can't take over the game through force of will, since you can run into those pitfalls a lot more easily
Spice is not just a flavor, it's a way of life.
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Ankamius
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Post Post #99  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:12 am

In post 96, RadiantCowbells wrote:Like fucking creature has 11/8 scum wr

That's baseline

To be competent scum you gotta be far above that

And to be great scum you gotta be far above that.


It's horrifying for the state of towns on this site if a 55-60% win rate as scum is just average
Spice is not just a flavor, it's a way of life.
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"i guess its time to try and smoke a cig to help me poop" - Skygazer 2019

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