How do you develop charisma?

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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:48 pm

Post by Firebringer »

In post 46, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 44, Firebringer wrote:And that kind of proves the point of you being a bad communicator tbh.
Your post wasn’t helpful to the topic. It isn’t about the accuracy of my reads, it’s about selling them.
Yeah and you missed my point that having better reads in general doesn't do much for increasing peoples use of them in of itself and definitely won't help you once you are dead because players almost never follow dead players reads, no matter how charismatic they are.

So you missed all my points, then told me I missed the topic. You are not being very good at listening right now.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:49 pm

Post by Ankamius »

Btw not being able to sell your reads and becoming known for having good reads is the worst case scenario

It means you end up dying for no reason a lot
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:50 pm

Post by Firebringer »

In post 48, Ankamius wrote:
In post 47, Firebringer wrote:I can't hear what ur saying Ankamius, are you saying that Hitler was right? Because that is fucking gross and you should be ashamed.
Get the paste out of your ears and pay attention you butt smacker
So you are saying that I am very good at listening and I have a cute butt? <3
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his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:52 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 51, Ankamius wrote:Btw not being able to sell your reads and becoming known for having good reads is the worst case scenario

It means you end up dying for no reason a lot
Great! I’m doomed then. :lol:
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:52 pm

Post by Firebringer »

In post 51, Ankamius wrote:Btw not being able to sell your reads and becoming known for having good reads is the worst case scenario

It means you end up dying for no reason a lot
true but if u have good reads and are known as mislynch bait, they might just lynch u instead.
people definitely don't listen to reads of people they lynch lol
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his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:56 pm

Post by Ankamius »

Oh god yeah that's actually worse
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:59 pm

Post by Flavor Leaf »

In post 45, Ankamius wrote:The most charismatic speakers are fantastic listeners
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:37 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 42, mastina wrote:What about what I said was complicated?
Assessing what's likely to persuade each person you need on the wagon, and then tailoring an individual pitch to each one of them. That's pretty complicated, and it's not necessary.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:41 am

Post by Persivul »

Again, you don't need charisma to get lynches. But if yo're interested in developing charisma, read
How to Win Friends and Influence People
. It's still the best on the subject. Some of the references are dated, but the methodology is sound.
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:54 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 58, Persivul wrote:Again, you don't need charisma to get lynches. But if yo're interested in developing charisma, read
How to Win Friends and Influence People
. It's still the best on the subject. Some of the references are dated, but the methodology is sound.
I found that having great reads, is far less important than conviction.

Which isn’t easy if you’re unsure but players don’t often know who to vote for and will gladly sheep a superconfident player.

The problem is not to do it, unless you’re absolutely convinced you’re right, or it will backfire on you. I’m always scared of the 0.01% chance I could be wrong about a scumread, which is why I’m far more persuasive harddefending a strong townread. However, you need to be established as obvtown first, because I did have both conviction and great arguments in MBoS but I wasn’t being widely obvtown read in that game, so nothing I said mattered. I was almost mechanically 98% confitown but because Mastina successfully framed my slot as her partner, no one listened.

So

1) be obvtown read

2) have conviction

3) make logical cases


This is how RC and Wisdom do it. Yes charisma, seals the deal but if the first two don’t exist, it doesn’t matter.
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:19 am

Post by Ankamius »

Wisdom doesn't case
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:26 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 60, Ankamius wrote:Wisdom doesn't case
No, not like Mastina does but he often uses mechanics to convince others.

And most people are happy to sheep a confident player, because it takes the heat off them.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
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Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:55 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

OK so I looked a bit more into the starcraft 2 game...

1) Post less. Seriously. Your hydra was the #1 poster for the entire game thread even with dying n1. If you're exhausting most of the other players, even if you’re making good points, there's very good odds no one will care at all about your reads.

2) If you die n1, no one's gonna go back and reread you later on. This is ESPECIALLY true if your iso is far too big to easily pick out the useful stuff. This is something you won't have a lot of control over, so I wouldn't worry overly much about it, just know that it's a thing that happens. If you want to be read after you're nk'd though, maybe on d2/3 put effort into reading the iso's of dead townies and creating an environment of looking back and caring what dead villagers had to say? idk if it'd actually work tho *shrugs*

3) If you hammer a townie d1 and die that night, you’re particularly unlikely to be listened to. Even more so if your hammer vote casts shade on some other townie. Otoh looking around the hammer vote timing, varsoon’s shitty ass fake claim introduced a lot of noise into the game state, none of which actually helped town (there’s probably a good lesson here about not fake claiming as town btw). It’s harder to go back and reread and pick up useful stuff if townie-generated bullshit is messing with the thread state.

4) At one point, you had quite good reads (scum pool of 4 people, 2 of which were scum), but by the end of the day, you were voting villagers (PF for a while, then hammered a townie), said to kill mew (a townie), and then in your hammer vote said to kill varsoon (also a townie) given the upcoming town flip. By the end of the game, town had listened to you (whether intentionally or not) in lynching PF (town) and jjh (wolf), and ignored your wishes in not lynching mew (town), varsoon (town), and pintu (wolf). Overall, I think you’re correct in that your influence was low, but I’m not sold that you had the kind of god-tier reads that would merit any kind of blind sheeping.

5) Just skimming your ISO, even knowing that you had a scumread on jjh, it took me a substantial amount of time/effort for me to figure out *why* you had said scumread. More below...
Spoiler:
You were asked about mew and explained that, but looking through your iso from viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78296&user_select%5B%5D=32204, and I don’t see much. You disliked nico’s opening (but I don’t think you really explained what was suspicious about it), made an offhand note about ignoring a question
In post 824, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:
In post 696, Varsoon wrote:Nico's got a very old habit of signing up for games and ghosting and I'm worried it's resurfacing here, so I'd say it's NAI or even lean-scum.
:/
Based on that quote she made and conveniently ignoring my question, makes it closer to a scumlean for me.
And I didn’t see much else. You backed off of that case when she quoted that she had only wanted to be a replacement, invalidating (some? All of?) your original suspicion basis
In post 1073, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:
In post 975, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:
In post 974, NicoRobin wrote:I clearly said '/in to replace' in the sign-up thread.......
In post 87, NicoRobin wrote:/in to replace
UNVOTE:
I don’t know what Nico is but I unvoted her because she clearly refuted, my main reason for initially scumreading her.
Therefore, she is a big fat null for me, atm.
~Nancy until further notce. Ari won’t be able to do much posting until next week.
And looking through page 2 of your iso, I don’t really see much that justifies the jjh push.
In post 1674, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:I feel more confident where my vote is currently as jjh has done nothing to couner my scumlean on Nico.
Isn’t nothing, but it isn’t much.
You eventually gave out
In post 1798, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:1195
In Labrynth, town!Nico doubled and tripled down that she was a “flip-based” player and didn’t vote on D1 and then she puts a naked vote on Stw, before replacing out. What has jjh done here that is townie?
Scum!Nico also placed on RVS vote on RR, due to some game-related vendetta, never moved it and then replaced out. Plus there was the whole AtE about her being upset about being “shanghaid” into the game. Perhaps, her Baa bah blacksheep thing was even a possible scumclaim? She actually crumbs as scum, seriously.
jjh’s entrance didn’t exactly give me townie vibes either.
but it took a while to get there, and it’s pretty solidly buried in the middle-late part of your iso.




I think for me, where I’m largely at is

1) Your reads aren’t substantially better than rand (your reads in that particular game were decently > rand, but that’s also the game you’re citing as being a particularly good reads game so I wouldn’t think it’s necessarily representative), so blindly sheeping your reads just b/c they’re your reads seems unwise for generic townie x

2) Your reads tend to be unexplained, and buried amongst a giant mound of overposting (this may be a hydra specific thing though, suk2 didn't feature the same disproportionate overposting compared to the rest of the board - alternatively, your personal preferred amount of posting per day may be greater than the ms standard, this is something you could speak to better than I could *shrugs*). This makes it very difficult for people to understand your headspace, and the more effort it takes for someone to even understand what it is you’re thinking (and especially why you’re thinking it), the easier it is for them to just not care about what you have to say

3) The bases of your reads, when explained, seem hit and miss (I’m leaning more on the Pesivul game [particularly the vca silliness] than the starcraft game here, but even in the starcraft game, there was a reasonable case on jjh slot but it wasn’t the sort of thing that’s any kind of lockscum case that, on its merits alone, should drive heavy sheeping [as an aside, if I'm a villager reading that, I feel like my reaction would be along the lines of "yeah I don't mind him dying and could potentially compromise there" as opposed to "kill kill kill"). It’s pretty unclear whether you’re relying more heavily on gut/intuition (in which case maybe be clearer about that) or whether you’re relying on what seem like a relatively mediocre set of tells (in which case I’d advise you to work on creating a better list of tells).

4) I think there are specific things you can do to make it likelier people will listen to you (avoid spamming up the thread; be clearer on your reasons, even if/when they’re fuzzier stuff like gut/intuition; intervene when you think there are unproductive town/town fights and work to understand what’s driving those fights to effectively break them up), but I think you can probably profit by taking a step back and realizing that your reads aren’t as good as you think they are. I can now think of 3 of your town games I’ve observed (sukilimas 2 on MU, the persivul game here, starcraft 2 here), and if I presume that this largely represents the range of your reads quality (suk2 obviously the poorer one here), overall it seems in the ballpark of =rand reads, maybe a touch above. Note that I haven’t taken the time to look at the quality of your TOWN reads (focusing on your scum reads / voting range) so it’s possible your town reads are where your strength lies, in which case maybe what you need to be doing is (IF that’s true) doing more work on getting people to correctly town read each other and creating better POEs to solve the game with.
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:54 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

Yes, and you’re ignoring that I
only
hammered STW due to Varsoon fakeclaim. I would have never lynched them otherwise. Also, I was right about locktowning Creature/Taly, and townreading Kokichi.

In Sukmas, I correctly had sheep, lime and Angel as town and had a strong gutread on SB scum but you aren’t referencing my best games , so your criticism of my reads accuracy rate is inaccurate.

I correctly identified Colin as last scum in Lovesick, beeboy and kane as scum in (can’t remember the game but it had Zara as RPS backup), moth in the nightless game. I could go on and on but you unknowingly misreping my reads accuracy rate isn’t what this thread is about but I’m not about to let stand a false assesment based on incomplete information, stand.

So, ISO me in SC1. I’d like to here your take on that.
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
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Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
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Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:04 am

Post by Flavor Leaf »

In post 60, Ankamius wrote:Wisdom doesn't case
Wisdom has a quiet charisma, I’d say. His presence is felt even when he only does a couple one liners.
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:17 am

Post by Ankamius »

In post 64, Flavor Leaf wrote:
In post 60, Ankamius wrote:Wisdom doesn't case
Wisdom has a quiet charisma, I’d say. His presence is felt even when he only does a couple one liners.
yeah he's a quiet type of forceful
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:25 am

Post by Firebringer »

So Nancy Drew, I am going to try to be as charismatic as possible with this post. Be patient I have -5 in charisma stat

So I think your original goal here as you said it is to sell your reads. What I would say is you want to convince people to sheep your reads. Because you see yourself as correct. I am not gonna tell you are wrong in your read record, because I think that is irrelevant to any point of how to be more charismatic and thus doesn’t matter for how to get what you want here.

So given that is your goal. People here have laid out a few different things to consider on how they think you would be more convincing. I am unsure about if that is what advice you want because you haven’t seemed to consider them a lot. I see a lot of posts that gets you off the goal that you want. I get why you would lose focus, someone says you play bad or something easy to lose focus on what you are trying to do when you are originally.

Then you also went into your opinions on what is important in Charisma. You gave your opinions on Charisma in a way in which I thought “Well wait. If you have these opinions, why are you asking how to be more charismatic. Are you actually seeking to be more charismatic if you already have these thoughts? Do you think you could be missing something here? Do you think theres a missing ingredient you are not getting?”

So I am confused and wondering if you have those opinions on what is charisma and you are just voicing these out in almost like talking to yourself in the shower to see how it sounds. Like I am unsure what you learned here from others and what you wanted from this because I am not seeing you gaining anything here in a way to help improve anything you didn’t already think beforehand.

Do you see yourself as rejecting the thoughts of the players too fast without thought? Or have you gotten closer to your goal so far in your approach?


I want to help you here but I am really unsure what capacity I am useful for here cause me is confused what you want.
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His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:27 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

@Nancy, I have only played with you for one day phase, ever (SC1), so take what I have to say with a grain of salt:

-I remember finding most of your game thoughts to be presented very emotionally, which I don't usually find persuasive and am more likely to ignore in most games when it comes to forming my own reads (though occasionally I'll get tricked into townreading a very "happy to be here" scum, but that's intentional emotional manipulation, which is different than how I remember you coming across... And it's also not a reason to sheep a player).

-You talked too much for my attention span, often simply repeating your own points, which gave me the feeling that "eh, if I just skim Nancy's posts I'll probably get the gist of where she's at without needing to read too deeply"

-Based off of this thread alone, I think you would benefit from acknowledging more often when others' points are correct. So far, most of your conversations with others here have been presented as a "yeah, but!" rather than a "yes, and". The latter helps townies feel closer to you - i.e. I think it happens to you sometimes that you agree with another player and they don't know it because you present it in an argumentative way
--> as a follow up to this last point, I think it's always a powerful move to identify a townie with good reads, and amplify their reads in the places you agree - more powerful than trying to bring your own readslist to the forefront of the conversation.
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:32 am

Post by Ankamius »

In post 67, Irrelephant11 wrote:--> as a follow up to this last point, I think it's always a powerful move to identify a townie with good reads, and amplify their reads in the places you agree - more powerful than trying to bring your own readslist to the forefront of the conversation.
100% this

I'd argue this is the single best way to get people to trust you or at least be a lot more hesitant to discount what you have to say entirely when they otherwise might
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:52 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 66, Firebringer wrote:So Nancy Drew, I am going to try to be as charismatic as possible with this post. Be patient I have -5 in charisma stat

So I think your original goal here as you said it is to sell your reads. What I would say is you want to convince people to sheep your reads. Because you see yourself as correct. I am not gonna tell you are wrong in your read record, because I think that is irrelevant to any point of how to be more charismatic and thus doesn’t matter for how to get what you want here.

So given that is your goal. People here have laid out a few different things to consider on how they think you would be more convincing. I am unsure about if that is what advice you want because you haven’t seemed to consider them a lot. I see a lot of posts that gets you off the goal that you want. I get why you would lose focus, someone says you play bad or something easy to lose focus on what you are trying to do when you are originally.

Then you also went into your opinions on what is important in Charisma. You gave your opinions on Charisma in a way in which I thought “Well wait. If you have these opinions, why are you asking how to be more charismatic. Are you actually seeking to be more charismatic if you already have these thoughts? Do you think you could be missing something here? Do you think theres a missing ingredient you are not getting?”

So I am confused and wondering if you have those opinions on what is charisma and you are just voicing these out in almost like talking to yourself in the shower to see how it sounds. Like I am unsure what you learned here from others and what you wanted from this because I am not seeing you gaining anything here in a way to help improve anything you didn’t already think beforehand.

Do you see yourself as rejecting the thoughts of the players too fast without thought? Or have you gotten closer to your goal so far in your approach?


I want to help you here but I am really unsure what capacity I am useful for here cause me is confused what you want.
I lack confidence in pushing my reads, because as Ank keeps saying, I suck at explaining them. Some are based on logic and facts and others more on gut, tone and intuition. In most cases, I have no trouble connecting the dots in my head but often have trouble explaining satisfactorily, how I got there.
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
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Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
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Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:55 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 68, Ankamius wrote:
In post 67, Irrelephant11 wrote:--> as a follow up to this last point, I think it's always a powerful move to identify a townie with good reads, and amplify their reads in the places you agree - more powerful than trying to bring your own readslist to the forefront of the conversation.
100% this

I'd argue this is the single best way to get people to trust you or at least be a lot more hesitant to discount what you have to say entirely when they otherwise might
@Irrelephant, in SC 2, I knew Taly was town but couldn’t explain how I got there, so how would I be able to do this, when I still can’t explain how I knew this?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:59 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

If I were in that situation, I'd say something like: "I can't explain why in logical terms, but I feel EXTREMELY strongly that this person is town. Here are a few of the posts that made me feel this way: [quotes in spoiler]. @another-person-I think-is-town, are you seeing what I'm seeing?"
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Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:05 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 71, Irrelephant11 wrote:If I were in that situation, I'd say something like: "I can't explain why in logical terms, but I feel EXTREMELY strongly that this person is town. Here are a few of the posts that made me feel this way: [quotes in spoiler]. @another-person-I think-is-town, are you seeing what I'm seeing?"
Okay, thanks, I’ll try that in the future.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Persivul
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:16 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 63, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:your criticism of my reads accuracy rate is inaccurate.
You don't know what your reads accuracy rate is. If you actually study it honestly, you'll probably find it's not as good as you think. It's not an easy game.
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:20 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Mafia is easy just ask yourself

Who would RadiantCowbells be voting in this situation

Then you vote that person
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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