How do you develop charisma?

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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:06 pm

Post by Ankamius »

In post 98, BNL wrote:Is the argument against cases “you give something the scum can argue against”?

Because that’s total BS
That's pretty much it yes lol

Give scum an inch and they will take a lot more than an inch

Plus if you don't get that lynch immediately, they have the advantage of knowing the pitfalls to avoid so that people continue not suspecting them.

It really is a lot more trouble than it's worth
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:07 pm

Post by Ankamius »

Explaining townreads is a lot more effective because scum can't really argue against them directly if they don't already have a good angle of attack on them
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:14 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 100, Ankamius wrote:
In post 98, BNL wrote:Is the argument against cases “you give something the scum can argue against”?

Because that’s total BS
That's pretty much it yes lol

Give scum an inch and they will take a lot more than an inch

Plus if you don't get that lynch immediately, they have the advantage of knowing the pitfalls to avoid so that people continue not suspecting them.

It really is a lot more trouble than it's worth
So, you think town shouldn’t make scum cases? So how do you push your scumreads then?
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:14 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

be the cutest player in the table and have everyone wrapped around your finger
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:25 pm

Post by BNL »

In post 100, Ankamius wrote:
In post 98, BNL wrote:Is the argument against cases “you give something the scum can argue against”?

Because that’s total BS
That's pretty much it yes lol

Give scum an inch and they will take a lot more than an inch

Plus if you don't get that lynch immediately, they have the advantage of knowing the pitfalls to avoid so that people continue not suspecting them.

It really is a lot more trouble than it's worth
That’s like saying “I know this is true but I won’t prove it because I don’t want you to be able to argue against it”
You can’t say you know something is true without showing it in the first place. I’m not sure why the flaw in the reasoning is not visible to the people using it.

Plus, I only see it as fair to present my reasonings and in fact as the proper way to play Mafia, and I’m annoyed at players who play otherwise due to that locigal fallacy or whatever
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:28 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 101, Ankamius wrote:Explaining townreads is a lot more effective because scum can't really argue against them directly if they don't already have a good angle of attack on them
One way I’ve successfully caught scum, is due to scumreading obvtown for pretty much specious reasoning. Like scum’s wet dream is lots of lynchbaity town.

Like in theRoomOdds, I didn’t necessarily scumread Clem but he made pretty much 0 effort to engage me in our private room, so I unfortunately had no basis, to either think he was a mislynch or argue against it. I actually still double down on VCA never lies, I just did it completely wrong.

Gamma had 4 votes, so when scum!Flavor put down a vote on his scumpal, it didn’t matter, since at that point, Gamma was getting lynched regardless, but I should have townlocked SS for his Gamma vote, since his vote enabled the town deflector mechanic.

So, both SS and Dunn, were mechanically close to being confirmed town. I also should have realized that scum wouldn’t kill Plot - who Dunn was pushing or Dunn and protected SS and switched him with Persival, since I was still tr Flavor.

But had I had that slot n1, I would have switched Tris with Persival and then I might have realized that Flavor had to be his buddy? I hope I would have, anyway. \_0_/
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:30 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 103, RadiantCowbells wrote:be the cutest player in the table and have everyone wrapped around your finger

***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
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Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
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Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:31 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

i love that song
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:57 pm

Post by Ankamius »

Idk what to tell you Bulletnlynchproof

Every single strong town game I've ever played was strong because I was able to shield mislynch bait until people eventually compromised or realized that my scumreads were scum

And scum couldn't do jack shit about it

Meanwhile, every time I attack my scumreads directly, it never ever works. Scum have a lot more leeway to counter you when you attack them directly. Scum look a lot more silly and suspicious countering a claim that their mislynch target is town.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:58 pm

Post by Ankamius »

In post 104, BNL wrote:That’s like saying “I know this is true but I won’t prove it because I don’t want you to be able to argue against it”
You can’t say you know something is true without showing it in the first place. I’m not sure why the flaw in the reasoning is not visible to the people using it.

Plus, I only see it as fair to present my reasonings and in fact as the proper way to play Mafia, and I’m annoyed at players who play otherwise due to that locigal fallacy or whatever
Because you don't need to specifically make the point itself to prove it.

If you can show that everyone who isn't scum is town, then who's left that can be scum lol
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:04 pm

Post by Ankamius »

Actually I am pretty certain that most of the town wins I've seen that weren't complete flukes were because town was finding each other as town more than people just having correct scumreads.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:09 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 108, Ankamius wrote:Idk what to tell you Bulletnlynchproof

Every single strong town game I've ever played was strong because I was able to shield mislynch bait until people eventually compromised or realized that my scumreads were scum

And scum couldn't do jack shit about it

Meanwhile, every time I attack my scumreads directly, it never ever works. Scum have a lot more leeway to counter you when you attack them directly. Scum look a lot more silly and suspicious countering a claim that their mislynch target is town.
Yes, because that’s usually how scum gets caught, because they can’t have valid arguments like town do because they’re obviously really not trying to sort anyone.
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
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Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
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Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:12 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 110, Ankamius wrote:Actually I am pretty certain that most of the town wins I've seen that weren't complete flukes were because town was finding each other as town more than people just having correct scumreads.
I think making solid townblocks, makes it difficult for scum to push. Like that’s how I knew TPFKAP was scum in Labrynth. He kept spamming useless alrarmist WIFOM to interfere with town solving.
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
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Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Post by Ankamius »

Then there you go, Nancy

Try that strategy out, show people why people can't be scum
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:15 pm

Post by Ankamius »

In post 112, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 110, Ankamius wrote:Actually I am pretty certain that most of the town wins I've seen that weren't complete flukes were because town was finding each other as town more than people just having correct scumreads.
I think making solid townblocks, makes it difficult for scum to push. Like that’s how I knew TPFKAP was scum in Labrynth. He kept spamming useless alrarmist WIFOM to interfere with town solving.
Just saying, this exact subtype of reasoning is why I was tunneling Shoshin so hard up until I died.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:52 pm

Post by BNL »

I guess it makes sense to make towncases than scumcases when put in that way

But isn’t the whole point of scumcasing to get the other people to vote scum?
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:07 pm

Post by Ankamius »

if you force town to think enough, they'll eventually reach that conclusion on their own

it takes more time and effort as your scumreads are more and more townread, but it's a lot easier to convince people that their townreads might be scum when they realize that their scumreads aren't actually scummy; they have a good basis for thinking that they aren't in the right mindset to solve the game and therefore are more likely to be willing to work with people that are more likely to be correct.

if you just convince people that their townreads are wrong, then they just hit a point where they think everyone can be scum and just shut down. that's obviously not very productive in a game where town has to come together to lynch scum.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:00 pm

Post by Buki »

I think that the problem isn't casing itself

it's how you case

the best case is one where you go for some key points that scum can hardly defend themselves against. That way you're not only not letting them defend themselves properly, but convincing other people that they're scum.

I've learned by experience that making long cases or even medium sized ones doesn't work. Scum will find the weakest arguments and only focus on them, and it'll be so much arguing that people will stop paying attention to what's being argued/discussed. It needs to be a bit short and a lot reasonable/convincing.

I don't think the solution is to simply not explain your scum read though, if you do that you're not only having worse odds of lynching your target, but you're as well making other townies have a harder time reading you.

Good and original scum reads are harder ti fake than town reads. I've hardly see someone make a perceptive/very original scum read and end up flipping scum. They're more likely town by my experience.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:02 pm

Post by Buki »

Also if you don't explain your scum read and you're wrong (what is very likely to happen) you'll be stuck there when you could argue it out and see what people bring to the table.

and also, it's considerably important to see how the rest of players react to the accusations/case, it's likely AI.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:19 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 110, Ankamius wrote:Actually I am pretty certain that most of the town wins I've seen that weren't complete flukes were because town was finding each other as town more than people just having correct scumreads.
Can vouch for that.

Finding town > finding scum, 100% of the time.

Find town, defend town, and scum run out of options.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:24 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

its a lot easier to find scum when you have a bunch of lock townreads
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:25 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 117, Buki wrote:I think that the problem isn't casing itself

it's how you case

the best case is one where you go for some key points that scum can hardly defend themselves against. That way you're not only not letting them defend themselves properly, but convincing other people that they're scum.

I've learned by experience that making long cases or even medium sized ones doesn't work. Scum will find the weakest arguments and only focus on them, and it'll be so much arguing that people will stop paying attention to what's being argued/discussed. It needs to be a bit short and a lot reasonable/convincing.

I don't think the solution is to simply not explain your scum read though, if you do that you're not only having worse odds of lynching your target, but you're as well making other townies have a harder time reading you.

Good and original scum reads are harder ti fake than town reads. I've hardly see someone make a perceptive/very original scum read and end up flipping scum. They're more likely town by my experience.
Well yes, because scum knows they’re town, unless either scum has a traitor/there’s an SK/it’s multiball, scum can make the best cases on their buddies, for the exact same reason town does. This is also why the vast majority of players can be toneread. Not all but most. Realizing this often help with meta. If a player can be read by tone. you play enough games with them, you will become an expert on reading them. There’s a good reason Sakura said that the most difficult thing for her to do as scum, is make reads.
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
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Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
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Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:27 pm

Post by Ankamius »

In post 117, Buki wrote:I think that the problem isn't casing itself

it's how you case

the best case is one where you go for some key points that scum can hardly defend themselves against. That way you're not only not letting them defend themselves properly, but convincing other people that they're scum.

I've learned by experience that making long cases or even medium sized ones doesn't work. Scum will find the weakest arguments and only focus on them, and it'll be so much arguing that people will stop paying attention to what's being argued/discussed. It needs to be a bit short and a lot reasonable/convincing.

I don't think the solution is to simply not explain your scum read though, if you do that you're not only having worse odds of lynching your target, but you're as well making other townies have a harder time reading you.

Good and original scum reads are harder ti fake than town reads. I've hardly see someone make a perceptive/very original scum read and end up flipping scum. They're more likely town by my experience.
In post 118, Buki wrote:Also if you don't explain your scum read and you're wrong (what is very likely to happen) you'll be stuck there when you could argue it out and see what people bring to the table.

and also, it's considerably important to see how the rest of players react to the accusations/case, it's likely AI.
I think we have a miscommunication here somewhere?

you're essentially agreeing with me, but I'm not saying to avoid going into your reads; I just believe that going into more than a basic overview of your scumreads is unnecessary and detrimental, while going into your townreads is a lot more effective both short term and long term.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:28 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 119, mastina wrote:
In post 110, Ankamius wrote:Actually I am pretty certain that most of the town wins I've seen that weren't complete flukes were because town was finding each other as town more than people just having correct scumreads.
Can vouch for that.

Finding town > finding scum, 100% of the time.

Find town, defend town, and scum run out of options.
In post 120, RadiantCowbells wrote:its a lot easier to find scum when you have a bunch of lock townreads
I am much better and more accurate at making townreads but in almost every damn game I’m in, someone will scumread me for not having any strong scumreads on D1. *shrug*
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
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Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:29 pm

Post by Ankamius »

In post 123, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 119, mastina wrote:
In post 110, Ankamius wrote:Actually I am pretty certain that most of the town wins I've seen that weren't complete flukes were because town was finding each other as town more than people just having correct scumreads.
Can vouch for that.

Finding town > finding scum, 100% of the time.

Find town, defend town, and scum run out of options.
In post 120, RadiantCowbells wrote:its a lot easier to find scum when you have a bunch of lock townreads
I am much better and more accurate at making townreads but in almost every damn game I’m in, someone will scumread me for not having any strong scumreads on D1. *shrug*
scumreads don't matter d1
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