Mafia Is Not Funny

[Enter]

This thread was created for the purpose of generating discussion and awareness of the growing mentality that mafia is not a joke and should not be treated as such. In it, people should feel free to voice opinions in opposition of, or support for a group of players that are willing to bite the bullet on a couple mafia games for the purpose of correcting the bad mindset that anti-town or thoughtless play is acceptable or should be allowed to continue. This would be achieved through lynching players that fakeclaim because it is funny or in the meta, self vote because "reactions," as an attempt to generate an emotional response to cause another player to town read them, lie without crumbing prior to, etc. Such a group would be willing to accept a few losses due to lynching of players who notoriously play with barely any attempt at town motivated attitude, and this is not a group for just lynching every time a player makes a mistake or a play that is intentional and thought through. I'm trying to think of good examples of both, but nothing comes to mind at the moment so I trust people to use common sense.

Consider the creation of this thread evidence of my support for such a group. If you are enjoying yourself while you play mafia, you're either a try-hard or you're doing it wrong.

[Ramcius]

Hm, is buzz words like towny/scummy usage to describe NAI behavior is a part of bad mafia play? If so, count me in

[Enter]

Yes.

[Enter]

To clarify: I support lynching players for using buzzwords to support bad cases based on personal agenda. I don't support lynching players because they misuse a term on occasion or they determine certain controversial things to be AI while other players think them not to be.

[Ramcius]

How you will determine what is bad case and what is good case? And what you mean by personal agenda?

[Enter]

Let me get back to you in this line of thought

[Dannflor]

This would be achieved through lynching players that fakeclaim because it is funny or in the meta, self vote because "reactions," as an attempt to generate an emotional response to cause another player to town read them, lie without crumbing prior to, etc.

I understand the feelings behind your crusade here. Towns are frustrating, they don't play optimally, they don't play the game the way they "ought" to. However, there are issues when it comes to policing this.

The problem is, when you start targeting actions like self voting or fake claiming it becomes increasingly hard to distinguish the point at which these actions are "bad" and should be punished. It's too subjective. You cannot in good faith state that these actions are never a valid strategy. Then, where exactly do you draw the line? Obviously, actions that compromise the game such as requesting replacement as a form of AtE and similar things should certainly be blacklisted. But that's an attitude that's already held by most people here, I think.

For example, self voting is a strategy that

can

produce useful information or be used strategically. I've seen it used as a tactic that heavily contributed to winning the game. If such a tactic can be legitimate in some scenarios, how do you make the distinction between players using the tactic sub-optimally and players intentionally not trying very hard—which I think is the general phenomenon you're trying to get at here? I mean, one can make the judgment that a person's fake role claim was obviously a terrible decision and must have been done just because fake role claiming is fun and funny. However, you can't really know that's the case. The fake role claim may have seemed like a worthwhile gambit given the game state.

Maybe the player just made a mistake.

I do understand your frustration with players whose play styles might seem more "loose" or don't seem to care as much. You came here to win. But, for better or worse, there will always be players like that. There will always be players that play sub-optimally. And there will always even be outright trolls.

Everyone plays mafia with a different motivation and for different reasons.

I, of course, don't support "thoughtless play" and don't think it should be rewarded. However, I do think policing such play becomes incredibly subjective very quickly. In addition, I think attempting such a feat would encourage a homogenization of play styles towards a "correct one," which I don't really think exists. Also, it would make games a lot less fun, in my opinion.

It's a challenge to deal with, but I also think it's just another layer to playing mafia. Ideally, through leading by example, stronger players can correct some of the more egregious examples of "thoughtless play." In the end though, you'll always have varying skill levels of players and varying play styles, and I think being able to adapt to that is an important skill too.

Correct me if I misunderstood anything.

[Enter]

Yeah. I see where you're coming from, and it seems you understand almost perfectly with one exception that I'm not certain on:
I'm not trying to lynch bad town, just thoughtless, careless town. Sub-optimal play is going to happen. I've had three games recently myself where I actually just wanted to leave because I was so embarrassed with how horribly I played and some of the mistakes I made, but I stick with it and I don't wanna lynch every bad town that ever was. Yet. I learn best when things are hardest, when the pressure to perform is greatest and any failure of any significance has serious consequences, but I don't know that that's the best environment for others to play in, so I won't push it for now.
So, now that that's cleared up, I want to say that I see where you're coming from, and that self-voting can be a reasonable strategy. I agree with you, I recently self-voted in BoP 2 as scum and it won me the game because of the way the setup worked. I'm not even against players blatantly lie - I lie as town all the time, but I crumb it first (most of the time) so that when I have to point it out, I also point out my crumb and it becomes apparent what I'm doing.

I'm trying to get rid of play that is common-place, thoughtless, and leads to people getting away with really dumb things because it's their meta, like claiming day 3 IC just because you think it's funny, or self-voting during RVS w/ no mechanics that support it.
Self-voting during RVS is a very subtle anti-town move that actually pushes town backwards and I'm really not interested in dealing with it anymore.
I feel like I get what you're saying on slippery slope, but TBH I'd much rather see no self-voting than everyone self-voting, I haven't seen a self-vote used effectively recently at all with the exception of when I did it as scum. What if we just did a hard reset, went back to the basics and rebuilt?

[Dannflor]

I'm trying to get rid of play that is common-place, thoughtless, and leads to people getting away with really dumb things because it's their meta, like claiming day 3 IC just because you think it's funny, or self-voting during RVS w/ no mechanics that support it.
Self-voting during RVS is a very subtle anti-town move that actually pushes town backwards and I'm really not interested in dealing with it anymore.
I feel like I get what you're saying on slippery slope, but TBH I'd much rather see no self-voting than everyone self-voting, I haven't seen a self-vote used effectively recently at all with the exception of when I did it as scum. What if we just did a hard reset, went back to the basics and rebuilt?

If I understand correctly, you're an advocate for bringing back policy lynching, in hopes that it'll correct terrible anti-town slots that make the game a chore to play.

I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with pushing for that or even policy lynches themselves.

However, personally, I just can't bring myself to play for policy lynches first in mafia games, even if the player in question is horrendously anti-town. When I'm town, I want to scum-hunt and lynch scum, after all that's the goal of the game. Maybe that's just a pride thing, I'm not sure. Sometimes the scummiest player is the most anti-town player, but not always.

And I get that's what you're getting at with having players that are okay with basically sacrificing a few games in order to lynch the sort of slots that do those sorts of things. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with approaching the game that way. I just don't think I could bring myself to do it because I'd rather just play my best game with the added challenge than resort to policy lynches that might actually be sub-optimal. (not that they're always sub-optimal lynches)

[Ankamius]

start using vigs in setups specifically for those slots

shooting mislynch bait is rarely a bad use of vig shots

[brassherald]

I'm just going to put this out there, starting today I will take games super seriously. I will never make another joke in a mafia game because its serious business.

[mhsmith0]

prodge

[Dannflor]

enter I've thought about this more and I have a counterpoint:

mafia is funny

[Enter]

Except you're wrong
Do you see anyone laughing at mafia

[Ankamius]

every single scumgame

[Enter]

every single scumgame

clever
very clever

[brassherald]

Hey. Remember when, in Stellaris mafia, a guy thought it would be funny to lolhammer a faked N0 guilty within 6 minutes of the day start?

Who was that?

[Enter]

Hey. Remember when, in Stellaris mafia, a guy thought it would be funny to lolhammer a faked N0 guilty within 6 minutes of the day start?

Who was that?

no clue
but if someone did something like that
they deserve to be lynched for it

[Enter]

Hey. Remember when, in Stellaris mafia, a guy thought it would be funny to lolhammer a faked N0 guilty within 6 minutes of the day start?

Who was that?

this is the sort of point i'm trying to make here

like when people play like this they should be lynched immediately

let me guess people tried to make it about lynching scum instead of just policy lynching?

that's dumb it doesn't matter if they're scum or town, they should have been lynched just right ou

[Enter]

like even the thought that play like this would survive is just another point against site meta

[Dannflor]

I think this game is fascinating (great game wgeurts!) so I apologize to Nero Cain for taking you guys out so fast, but never in my mafia career will I miss a chance to do this:

VOTE: Nero Cain
swarm:Nero Cain
swarm:Nero Cain (using "Talented" perk)

And that's a lynch for today, as far as I'm aware.

Firestarters, the Xanyr Multitude, was lynched Day 2. They were aligned with The Town.

[Enter]

I think this game is fascinating (great game wgeurts!) so I apologize to Nero Cain for taking you guys out so fast, but never in my mafia career will I miss a chance to do this:

VOTE: Nero Cain
swarm:Nero Cain
swarm:Nero Cain (using "Talented" perk)

And that's a lynch for today, as far as I'm aware.

Firestarters, the Xanyr Multitude, was lynched Day 2. They were aligned with The Town.

exactly

[Enter]

the fact that it had to come down to a lolhammer from scum to put Firestarters down
and teh fact that people tried to make a case for firestarters being scum

is points against the site meta

[Creature]

Well, sports aren't funny either, it's more of a job.

[Enter]

Well, sports aren't funny either, it's more of a job.

do you see people self-voting in sports?