Mafia Is Not Funny

[Creature]

Well, sports aren't funny either, it's more of a job.

do you see people self-voting in sports?

Well, you see people self-getting themselves a red card or something.

[Enter]

Well, sports aren't funny either, it's more of a job.

do you see people self-voting in sports?

Well, you see people self-getting themselves a red card or something.

we need red cards in mafia

[Creature]

I agree. Add yellow cards too.

[Dannflor]

we need red cards in mafia

isn't that a scum role pm

[Creature]

Should probably give bad players SK role.

[Enter]

we need red cards in mafia

isn't that a scum role pm

i guess
are you saying that players who self-vote should become scum immediately

[Dannflor]

i guess
are you saying that players who self-vote should become scum immediately

yes unless they are myself

[Enter]

i guess
are you saying that players who self-vote should become scum immediately

yes unless they are myself

:3

[Enter]

I agree

[Xtoxm]

if you have an issue with self votes to the point that you never want to see them, you can disallow them
run a game and have a rule that self votes just wont be counted
then try to get other mods on board, etc

[Enter]

if you have an issue with self votes to the point that you never want to see them, you can disallow them
run a game and have a rule that self votes just wont be counted
then try to get other mods on board, etc

bookmarked

[BuJaber]

I'm of the opinion that self votes are never helpful for town, if they were at some niche scenario then I am sure there was a better way to do the same thing.

No self-votes as town, would force scum to stop self-voting and would force both factions to try harder.

I think it can be objectively and systematically eradicated. And in many many situations it was blatantly playing against the self-voter's win condition when they sped up their lynch or got themselves at L-1 then quickhammered, or simply hammered themselves (as town).

[Enter]

I'm of the opinion that self votes are never helpful for town, if they were at some niche scenario then I am sure there was a better way to do the same thing.

No self-votes as town, would force scum to stop self-voting and would force both factions to try harder.

I think it can be objectively and systematically eradicated. And in many many situations it was blatantly playing against the self-voter's win condition when they sped up their lynch or got themselves at L-1 then quickhammered, or simply hammered themselves (as town).

I agree, but how do we objectively and systematically eradicate it?

[BuJaber]

As in the action itself is visible, it's not a subjective thing, so as soon as you see a self vote everyone knows it's a self-vote. That's the objective part.

I would also presume that my opinion is based on fact, because I chose my words very carefully to cover all situations, but someone still might disagree so I won't claim that my evaluation of self-votes is also objective.

As for systematically, my old thinking was to just auto lynch any self-votes until it stops eventually but xtox's idea is better. By having the mods enforce it game after game, it will have no effect on the game outcome and it should eventually catch on. Though this method does require that enough mods share the same opinion. Like the only way to really remove any subjectivity and/or abuse of power is to not have it in the first place.

Let me ask a question that may help convince the doubters. You said you used self-voting effectively in the past; do you think it was the best way to do what you did?

I think nobody disagrees with the concept when it is blatantly bad like self-voting in lylo or whatever. I think people see it have a positive effect on a game sometime and think it is worth keeping around for those. But I would argue that in those same scenarios, the self-vote was the lazy/unskilled option.

The only real exception is scum hammering themselves to end the day early, but even that, unless it was a confirmed guilty, there is always somr argument you could make to weasel out of the lynch. Just because me, you, and X can't save themselves in that scenario does not mean all scum players can't save themselves in that scenario by just talking. Challenge yourself, and raise the bar for us all.

[BuJaber]

Btw since this thread is a catch-all and not just for self-votes.

I don't know how troll accounts aren't considered against the rules.

If you join a game, and only post like 6 joke or shitposts, and lurk throughout the gamd, then you're not helping your team, you're not playing the game, and you're just taking up space.

I don't want people to not have fun. I encourage fun, and analyze games I did not enjoy to try and avoid doing things that make it unfun for me, or environments that make it unfun. But troll accounts is just going too far. It is intentional game sabotage.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm just going to put this out there, starting today I will take games super seriously. I will never make another joke in a mafia game because its serious business.

[Alisae]

if you have an issue with self votes to the point that you never want to see them, you can disallow them
run a game and have a rule that self votes just wont be counted
then try to get other mods on board, etc

this shouldn't count selfhammers
there are times where self-hammering is correct as town, and correct as scum.

[Nancy Drew 39]

enter I've thought about this more and I have a counterpoint:

mafia is funny

+1

The best games often are. Without humour, you can burn out of games fast. Jingle understands this better than anyone.

[Ankamius]

Mafia is complex enough that you can't really ever say that anything you do is the best thing you could have done bujaber

[Ramcius]

Mafia is not funny, but what we have here isn't mafia, so...

[BuJaber]

Mafia is complex enough that you can't really ever say that anything you do is the best thing you could have done bujaber

This is true.

It comes down to this.
Is the potential gain from the rare times that it will be helpful big enough to outweigh the negative consequences of all other times?

Self-voting is the unicycle of mafia tools. Maybe one employee can ride one and get to work early despite the traffic, but the vast majority will fall down trying.

[RadiantCowbells]

Getting rid of self voting won't get rid of the mentality

[BNL]

Have been wanting to talk about this

Town site meta is extremely trash right now. And it can’t be fixed because stuff like “lynch all liars” does not take site meta into account, and trying to shift the site meta is really playing for a future wincon.

[Flavor Leaf]

People need to start focusing on the social side of mafia rather than the mechanical side. Yes, mechanics are, in theory, the way to solve games, but that has put a bullseye on that side of play specifically for the scum to target. I definitely go out of my way as scum to abuse said town players who go out of their way to push the optimal correct mechanical play. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that’s a bad play, and I feel that definitely should always be a large part of the game, but the past few years, people have essentially put that as the standard of how you should play.

I don’t think I’m out of line when I say I believe that I am the best BS’er on site right now. That’s just kind of my personality in general. Even in real life I just kind of have this sarcastic/nonsense comical personality about me. I can spew words and go off on sarcastic tangents with anyone. So why shouldn’t I use that natural state of who I am in what is a social game?

I feel like a lot of players who play mafia at a higher level on site are very logical players on the mechanical side of the game, but they lack the social interaction ability because it’s not the mechanically optimal choice. Scum see this, and creates a gamestate where they are not the optimal mechanical choice.

On the topic of playing your wincon and it shouldn’t be fun, it should be taken seriously, with no self votes, no town fake claims, I’ve done this stuff. Are you able to honestly say that I’m not a player who tries to win every single game despite the odds? I actively try to have fun as well, but winning is everything here. The fact we have such long day phases means we have to commit to a large portion of time to the game, which helps add to the wanting to win factor, or else what is it all for?

I’ve gone town games where I’ve claimed 5 different roles, became universally town read, and then caught 3 of 4 scum before taking a night kill. Now I’m not advising people do this, obviously. But the fact of the matter is, I’m not lying when I do this, I’m just putting a statement out there, and through that, you can see how the game state is actively being warped, and by who. It’s almost a hypothetical situation kind of deal, that’s dipped into potential reality. Something_Smart in a game fake soft claimed a Loyal guilty on scum me, and he had us completely freaked out, which I believe the game state could have been effectively read off that situation.

The issue with that is how can you trust people who do that? The question is agendas. A lot of players read players off of specific things done in games, and they see it almost as black and white, mechanical, when they should be looking at things on a collective whole. A player can make multiple plays that come off as scummy, and that’s it for people. They don’t look at the possibility of it coming from town, and if they do, they look at it from surface level.

“This is likely a scum move, but there’s a chance it’s town.” Pair that line of reasoning up with other things together and connect the puzzle. That scummy seeming move can come off as obv town.

There are a good amount of times where I’m town, and I’m being pushed by a mechanical heavy player relentlessly, and a lot of times I’ll have a legion of other townie players following me, and in the end, those players are correct, not the mechanical heavy player.

I play the way I do as scum because of the heavy mechanical players.

I play the way I do as town because of the potential of a scum player like me.

I have had major success as both alignments, and in the end Mafia is a social game, and you have to take that into account when playing. The separation between the heavy mechanical players, and the players that aren’t is not a healthy split, and I advise that the heavier mechanical players look into their social dynamic game, and vice versa.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I rarely throw down a vote anymore unless I’m going for a lynch. I’ll say my thoughts, and vote when I’m ready. I know there are players who just aren’t the social type, but the way that you push the mechanical play is a type of social, just treat the social side like a mechanical play, because it has become that way.

And if not, people are just going to get upset at ScumMe continuously BS’ing my way through games and having people fall for it. I directly play the social game around mechanically heavy players, and my results speak for itself.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m also an actor for a living who studied Sociology with an emphasis in Family/Relationships, though, so maybe I just see things completely different.