Mafia Is Not Funny

[Xtoxm]

i play to my strengths, which is the logical/mechanical side

[Enter]

Alright, I see your push for more social play and I'm going to counter with:
I'm not against bad mechanical play - as someone who recently won a game as scum by pushing my own lynch w/ a self-vote as a mechanically optimal move, I recognize there's a time and place for everything, but my argument isn't that bad mechanical play is what's ruining the game, it's that players not trying is what's ruining the game. People not putting any effort in whatsoever. Dancing around mechanically gifted players with superior social skills is one thing, but fakeclaiming just because you think it's funny and refusing to attempt to play mafia whatsoever is a different matter entirely, IMO. Are you implying you support this and I"m just missing the point somewhere?

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m not saying don’t use mechanical. Definitely do. I don’t see Logical and Mechanical playing as the same thing, either, though.

If it were a rock-paper-scissor game, most players are just going to pick Rock because they don’t think about it, and subconsciously it’s the first thing they think about because it’s the first thing said. Heavy mechanical players see that, and can easily play paper.

When I play rock-paper-scissor, I always say “I call paper.” And then I pick paper. When people hear that, they generally always pick either rock or paper because they assume I’m not actually gonna play paper, so they think I’m tricking them into playing scissors, and generally I can tell when a player really starts to try to outthink me, which lets me be another step ahead of them.

So in mafia, when I see a general “paper player” I’m going to play scissors, because it directly counters them.

So yes, paper players will win th majority of games with unprepared players.

But mafia is essentially an extended and repeated series of rock, paper, scissors, and if you just play paper, you’re never gonna beat scissors.

[Xtoxm]

it's not like i actively choose not to play social
i wish i had better social skills, both in mafia and in life generally

[mhsmith0]

If it were a rock-paper-scissor game, most players are just going to pick Rock because they don’t think about it,

[Flavor Leaf]

Alright, I see your push for more social play and I'm going to counter with:
I'm not against bad mechanical play - as someone who recently won a game as scum by pushing my own lynch w/ a self-vote as a mechanically optimal move, I recognize there's a time and place for everything, but my argument isn't that bad mechanical play is what's ruining the game, it's that players not trying is what's ruining the game. People not putting any effort in whatsoever. Dancing around mechanically gifted players with superior social skills is one thing, but fakeclaiming just because you think it's funny and refusing to attempt to play mafia whatsoever is a different matter entirely, IMO. Are you implying you support this and I"m just missing the point somewhere?

At the same time, do you actually think they are actively trying not to win? Because I think a lot of joke claims are easily readable. If they legit aren’t caring about the game, that’s a different thing, they shouldn’t be in committing themselves to a game of this length then. That’s just a waste of people’s time. However I do believe jokes have a place in mafia, because both scum and town do it, and if you can analyze the type of player who’s making said joke, it can be extremely readable. I got caught out as scum once by a newbie player in a normal game because I said “haha” and “smilies” a lot more as scum.

So with that, I started doing that as town more which is why I believe meta to be a great

supplementary

tool.

[RadiantCowbells]

wait

you got caught doing something as scum

it was a scumtell for you

-> you do it as town?

[Xtoxm]

on the topic of fakeclaims though, my irl group does town fakeclaims super frequently
i think theres certainly utility in it
i was caught out by this recently when people reacted to my claim not entirely lining up by saying "fakeclaim, kill it" when i thought it was a fairly reasonable town transition to make

[Flavor Leaf]

it's not like i actively choose not to play social
i wish i had better social skills, both in mafia and in life generally

At the same time, in mafia at least, players should assess what type of player the other players are and help use that, instead of treating everything black and white and every player specific. I like to think this community is a social setting, and the anonymity of it all really helps people see each other’s personalities. I don’t necessarily think people need to up their “social charisma” rather than assess everyone’s social position in the game.

People with more “charisma” aren’t any better than a player who isn’t as charismatic. They’re just different. We’re all on an equal footing, and we’ll all trying to win the same game. We’re all equal, and any of us had a chance at rolling scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

wait

you got caught doing something as scum

it was a scumtell for you

-> you do it as town?

And vice versa. I’ve done stuff as town tells as scum.

It’s not that I didn’t do it as town before. i just overcompenated when I was scum, and acted accordingly. It allowed me to be more playful as town as a viable town strategy.

I BS my way through town just as much as I BS my way through scum.

I’m a BS’er.

Wincon comes before everything, and I’m constantly trying to improve all aspects of my game. By doing something I consistently did as scum as town improves my town survivability because of how self-aware I am.

[Flavor Leaf]

on the topic of fakeclaims though, my irl group does town fakeclaims super frequently
i think theres certainly utility in it
i was caught out by this recently when people reacted to my claim not entirely lining up by saying "fakeclaim, kill it" when i thought it was a fairly reasonable town transition to make

My micro games in BooneyToonz when playing on its own, is essentially all about fake claiming. And you can get legit reads on players in that game.

I’m in the process of starting that up and publishing that as a game at the moment. In the design process.

[Enter]

Alright, I see your push for more social play and I'm going to counter with:
I'm not against bad mechanical play - as someone who recently won a game as scum by pushing my own lynch w/ a self-vote as a mechanically optimal move, I recognize there's a time and place for everything, but my argument isn't that bad mechanical play is what's ruining the game, it's that players not trying is what's ruining the game. People not putting any effort in whatsoever. Dancing around mechanically gifted players with superior social skills is one thing, but fakeclaiming just because you think it's funny and refusing to attempt to play mafia whatsoever is a different matter entirely, IMO. Are you implying you support this and I"m just missing the point somewhere?

At the same time, do you actually think they are actively trying not to win? Because I think a lot of joke claims are easily readable. If they legit aren’t caring about the game, that’s a different thing, they shouldn’t be in committing themselves to a game of this length then. That’s just a waste of people’s time. However I do believe jokes have a place in mafia, because both scum and town do it, and if you can analyze the type of player who’s making said joke, it can be extremely readable. I got caught out as scum once by a newbie player in a normal game because I said “haha” and “smilies” a lot more as scum.

So with that, I started doing that as town more which is why I believe meta to be a great

supplementary

tool.

I think I'm tired of people not really caring about the game and I want it to change
I saw too many self-hammers as town that didn't really help the town at all because people couldn't take a break and cool off.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, that’s annoying. I strictly use self votes to further win con, both alignments. It used to be bad. It turned into an accidental trust tell at one point.

[BuJaber]

Flavor leaf, a lot of players here have this shallow idea that if a player does something as both alignments then it is NAI for them.

I think this is bullshit. I think there is always a difference in play even if the visible action is the same, the agenda/motivation/intention will differ etc, the actions around the action, the way they direct such action at players.

However, I have found that convincing people of this is incredibly difficult. They just shun you at best, and often turn on you and lynch you just because they think there is no way anyone can read alignment in said action.

And you know what that does? It spreads the idea that this is a good way to escape suspicion. People should just do action x many many times as both alignment so it becomes known that they do that. And then more people falsely argue that it shouldn't be analyzed because it's "NAI" and then you have RVS and early game filled with nonsense like this, and players start to adopt another false perspective which is that the early pages tells you nothing about alignment.

It's just a vicious cycle of people basically making excuses for why they are not scumhunting. But I try to speak against this out loud in games, and the most frequent reaction I encounter is people call me scum for it, ignore my opinions and reads, and eventually mislynch.

I just caught a player in a game on page 1 for making a joke claim. Soon after that I caught one of his buddies for strongly defending him/attacking me. My reads were ignored, other people got lynched instead, I was mislynched later, and scum won with both those players endgaming. It was absolutely pitiful and all town said at the end was good job scum no taking responsibility for their shit play at all. Why? Because the player I caught is a troll who jokes in every game, so for some reason that means nobody can ever scumread him for that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think games would be a lot more playable, if everyone would just stop with the bs fake guilties and nonsense fake claims. Also, if you seriously have to rely on fake post restrictions, don’t play and I was in a game awhile back, where a couple of players, basically hijacked the game by spamming numerous pics and continuing to make their posts in all caps, despite the majority of players, adamantly opposing it. The mod of this particular game, even went so far as defending those disruptive players’ actions in dead chat, on the basis of them being tilted for not being listened to.

[Enter]

Flavor leaf, a lot of players here have this shallow idea that if a player does something as both alignments then it is NAI for them.

I think this is bullshit. I think there is always a difference in play even if the visible action is the same, the agenda/motivation/intention will differ etc, the actions around the action, the way they direct such action at players.

However, I have found that convincing people of this is incredibly difficult. They just shun you at best, and often turn on you and lynch you just because they think there is no way anyone can read alignment in said action.

And you know what that does? It spreads the idea that this is a good way to escape suspicion. People should just do action x many many times as both alignment so it becomes known that they do that. And then more people falsely argue that it shouldn't be analyzed because it's "NAI" and then you have RVS and early game filled with nonsense like this, and players start to adopt another false perspective which is that the early pages tells you nothing about alignment.

It's just a vicious cycle of people basically making excuses for why they are not scumhunting. But I try to speak against this out loud in games, and the most frequent reaction I encounter is people call me scum for it, ignore my opinions and reads, and eventually mislynch.

I just caught a player in a game on page 1 for making a joke claim. Soon after that I caught one of his buddies for strongly defending him/attacking me. My reads were ignored, other people got lynched instead, I was mislynched later, and scum won with both those players endgaming. It was absolutely pitiful and all town said at the end was good job scum no taking responsibility for their shit play at all. Why? Because the player I caught is a troll who jokes in every game, so for some reason that means nobody can ever scumread him for that.

I like you.

I have a lot of these problems, too. I explain reads less and less as I get more experienced because people don't believe what tiny little things you can catch scum doing.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Alright, I see your push for more social play and I'm going to counter with:
I'm not against bad mechanical play - as someone who recently won a game as scum by pushing my own lynch w/ a self-vote as a mechanically optimal move, I recognize there's a time and place for everything, but my argument isn't that bad mechanical play is what's ruining the game, it's that players not trying is what's ruining the game. People not putting any effort in whatsoever. Dancing around mechanically gifted players with superior social skills is one thing, but fakeclaiming just because you think it's funny and refusing to attempt to play mafia whatsoever is a different matter entirely, IMO. Are you implying you support this and I"m just missing the point somewhere?

At the same time, do you actually think they are actively trying not to win? Because I think a lot of joke claims are easily readable. If they legit aren’t caring about the game, that’s a different thing, they shouldn’t be in committing themselves to a game of this length then. That’s just a waste of people’s time. However I do believe jokes have a place in mafia, because both scum and town do it, and if you can analyze the type of player who’s making said joke, it can be extremely readable. I got caught out as scum once by a newbie player in a normal game because I said “haha” and “smilies” a lot more as scum.

So with that, I started doing that as town more which is why I believe meta to be a great

supplementary

tool.

I think I'm tired of people not really caring about the game and I want it to change
I saw too many self-hammers as town that didn't really help the town at all because people couldn't take a break and cool off.

Yes, town should never ever self-hammer. It deprives town of potentially valuable information. In Starcraft1, scum!Performer repeatedly hammered town, which was potentially useful information in correctly reading him, so town players self-hammering really hurts town’s wincon.

[Flavor Leaf]

I agree that you can do the same things as both alignments, and it’s still different.

That’s why I’ve taken to this new style of not pushing a person for just one thing. I’ve noticed people like to tunnel me, and even can know if I’m scum, but honestly, it doesn’t matter if you know I’m scum, you gotta get the people to lynch me, and that’s exactly what I’m talking about with the social aspect.

That’s why I think there’s merit in town to say your thoughts, but not push completely.

I actively like to try working with the players I am in a 1v1 with because if I’m wrong, maybe we can get on the same page, if I’m right, they’re going to have to actively play against the fact that I’m trying to work with them. Town has to play in a way to survive too. Most of the time, scum are what I like to call “warlocking” where they add fuel and the power behind a town players push on another townie, so they don’t take the blunt of the damage.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Flavor leaf, a lot of players here have this shallow idea that if a player does something as both alignments then it is NAI for them.

I think this is bullshit. I think there is always a difference in play even if the visible action is the same, the agenda/motivation/intention will differ etc, the actions around the action, the way they direct such action at players.

However, I have found that convincing people of this is incredibly difficult. They just shun you at best, and often turn on you and lynch you just because they think there is no way anyone can read alignment in said action.

And you know what that does? It spreads the idea that this is a good way to escape suspicion. People should just do action x many many times as both alignment so it becomes known that they do that. And then more people falsely argue that it shouldn't be analyzed because it's "NAI" and then you have RVS and early game filled with nonsense like this, and players start to adopt another false perspective which is that the early pages tells you nothing about alignment.

It's just a vicious cycle of people basically making excuses for why they are not scumhunting. But I try to speak against this out loud in games, and the most frequent reaction I encounter is people call me scum for it, ignore my opinions and reads, and eventually mislynch.

I just caught a player in a game on page 1 for making a joke claim. Soon after that I caught one of his buddies for strongly defending him/attacking me. My reads were ignored, other people got lynched instead, I was mislynched later, and scum won with both those players endgaming. It was absolutely pitiful and all town said at the end was good job scum no taking responsibility for their shit play at all. Why? Because the player I caught is a troll who jokes in every game, so for some reason that means nobody can ever scumread him for that.

This is very true. As anyone who’s played with me as both town and scum, know that AtEing is entirely NIA for me but I do it for different reasons. As town, I get upset about being wrongly scumread. As scum, I get upset if I’m tunnelled. Now, my emotions are nearly always genuine but they’re never NAI. So, it would be a mistake for that to be dismissed soley on AtEing for me being NAI in general.

However, it’s not a strategy for me in any case, any more than derping is - another thing that is also NAI for me.

I am however learning to try to cut down both the intensity and amount of AtEing I do in games in general, because it works against the charisma you need to be able to convince others to shepp you. It’s really difficult for me to do that opposed to straight up being tilted but I’m finding that it really helps in getting people to listen to you more, so I’m planning on incorporating that a lot more into my future play.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I agree that you can do the same things as both alignments, and it’s still different.

That’s why I’ve taken to this new style of not pushing a person for just one thing. I’ve noticed people like to tunnel me, and even can know if I’m scum, but honestly, it doesn’t matter if you know I’m scum, you gotta get the people to lynch me, and that’s exactly what I’m talking about with the social aspect.

That’s why I think there’s merit in town to say your thoughts, but not push completely.

I actively like to try working with the players I am in a 1v1 with because if I’m wrong, maybe we can get on the same page, if I’m right, they’re going to have to actively play against the fact that I’m trying to work with them. Town has to play in a way to survive too. Most of the time, scum are what I like to call “warlocking” where they add fuel and the power behind a town players push on another townie, so they don’t take the blunt of the damage.

I’ve also noticed you use the term, “hacheting” a lot in games. What does that mean exactly?

[Alisae]

Mafia is funny

[Flavor Leaf]

I use hatcheting in a similar fashion to chainsaw when chainsaw just doesn’t work.

Basically, it’s when another player is directly chopping down and discrediting a push by way of devil’s advocating them or momentum stopping. Generally not in a way of attacking the person, though, which is what’s different from chainsaw’ing.

[Ankamius]

Charisma really isn't anything more than pushing the right buttons at the right time

Anybody will follow you if you find the right buttons and timings

[Nero Cain]

the fact that it had to come down to a lolhammer from scum to put Firestarters down
and teh fact that people tried to make a case for firestarters being scum

I mean, it was bad play b/c even if you did believe the n0 guilty (which I still don't believe) you should have waited and judged the reactions.

[brassherald]

the fact that it had to come down to a lolhammer from scum to put Firestarters down
and teh fact that people tried to make a case for firestarters being scum

I mean, it was bad play b/c even if you did believe the n0 guilty (which I still don't believe) you should have waited and judged the reactions.

Never change, Nero, never change