Self-Voting Thoughts

[Ramcius]

Tbf the competent players tend to die before lylo

Competent town =/= competent players. Competent town is, when people work together and know how to find scum instead giving in to paranoia/apathy. Also, if your game reached LYLO/MYLO, it's probably was not very competent town to begin with

[Enter]

Tbf the competent players tend to die before lylo

Competent town =/= competent players. Competent town is, when people work together and know how to find scum instead giving in to paranoia/apathy. Also, if your game reached LYLO/MYLO, it's probably was not very competent town to begin with

Therefore, self-voting to end the game is a bad move.

[Ramcius]

Tbf the competent players tend to die before lylo

Competent town =/= competent players. Competent town is, when people work together and know how to find scum instead giving in to paranoia/apathy. Also, if your game reached LYLO/MYLO, it's probably was not very competent town to begin with

Therefore, self-voting to end the game is a bad move.

It's not bad, just pointless and wasteful, it doesn't change outcome

[Enter]

It's not bad, just pointless and wasteful, it doesn't change outcome

It's bad
and pointless and wasteful

[Enter]

It's poor sportsmanship
It's not playing to your wincon

[Ramcius]

Tbh, I find it contrary - surrendering and saying "good game" to your opponent, when you are clearly beaten is good sportsmanship

Also, if you resort to self vote, you already accepted that you're lost, so it's self vote to prolong game till enough town will check in and votes or concede

[Enter]

Tbh, I find it contrary - surrendering and saying "good game" to your opponent, when you are clearly beaten is good sportsmanship

Also, if you resort to self vote, you already accepted that you're lost, so it's self vote to prolong game till enough town will check in and votes or concede

You haven't been clearly beaten until the mod posts the final votecount.

You've already admitted multiple times that rarely is town competent in mylo/lylo. Even if there's a .1% chance that you win by someone else just making a dumb vote or a stupid mistake
That's you coming out with a win where it seemed almost unlikely

Unlikely wins don't happen if people give up when winning is unlikely

[Enter]

Surrendering and saying "good game" to your opponent after the final vote count is posted is good sportsmanship

Giving up and not letting your opponent play their game until the end is poor sportsmanship almost every time.

[Ramcius]

If you going into MYLO/LYLO without a plan for victory (you should plan ahead of time who you're taking in LYLO/MYLO), then you ofc should concede. That said my point is that you should concede, if you're not in LYLO/MYLO yet, but you're last scum and town has way too much power left to fight them solo.

[Enter]

If you going into MYLO/LYLO without a plan for victory (you should plan ahead of time who you're taking in LYLO/MYLO), then you ofc should concede. That said my point is that you should concede, if you're not in LYLO/MYLO yet, but you're last scum and town has way too much power left to fight them solo.

That's poor sportsmanship.
That's giving up.
I strongly disagree with you.
I'm not interested in playing a game as town where scum will decide for me when I've won and won't let me try to actually finish them off.
I'm not interested in ending the game early as scum just because the game feels won for the other side.

Like I think I can see where you think you might be coming from, but my only thought for that is that you haven't played enough games on the winning team and you finally get the chance to feel victorious after fighting for so long and the opponent just gives up on you and doesn't let you ever have that sense of being in control. And you haven't had enough games where it felt like you were going to lose but you held in there and managed to pull a win out against all odds. These are the two reasons to play games. The thought that there are people like you who would take that from me makes me sick to my stomach.

[Ankamius]

If scum are mechanically locked in a scenario where they have literally no chance of escaping but it could take 3-4 days to actually end the game, I would concede.

[Enter]

If scum are mechanically locked in a scenario where they have literally no chance of escaping but it could take 3-4 days to actually end the game, I would concede.

I have difficulty imagining a situation like this happening. :/

[Ankamius]

It's excessive but it counts

There are absolutely scenarios that occur where the game is essentially over but it can still take a good amount of time for it to be actually finished

those scenarios are absolutely torturous to play as scum

[Enter]

playing scum is torturous. :/

I ... dislike the idea of giving up, even when it sucks to keep playing and it looks like you've lost. I haven't been there in a game recently, though, so maybe my opinion will change if I experience it again.

I like to think in the past playing through rough spots was what made the game enjoyable for the other side.

[Ankamius]

Playing through rough spots yes

If you manage to not find the one pr that manages to clear the rest of the lynch list and there's enough mislynches to get through the rest... then what's the point of continuing lol

or if there's enough associative information in the game where too many town are cleared systematically

or scum fall into a gambit that essentially clears half the playerlist

situations like that DO happen, mistakes are made all the time and some of them create a decisive disadvantage that would be pretty much impossible to come back from

plus, morale is a very strong attribute that is necessary for any defense. if the scumteam can't find any way to come back, the morale evaporates and there's no defense left.

both of those together are a good case for conceding

[Enter]

Playing through rough spots yes

If you manage to not find the one pr that manages to clear the rest of the lynch list and there's enough mislynches to get through the rest... then what's the point of continuing lol

or if there's enough associative information in the game where too many town are cleared systematically

or scum fall into a gambit that essentially clears half the playerlist

situations like that DO happen, mistakes are made all the time and some of them create a decisive disadvantage that would be pretty much impossible to come back from

plus, morale is a very strong attribute that is necessary for any defense. if the scumteam can't find any way to come back, the morale evaporates and there's no defense left.

both of those together are a good case for conceding

I trust you to make a reasonable decision, Ank.

I won't speak to either of these specific situations because I haven't been in them and I'm a bit conflicted between my respect for you and the way I was raised.

I think I'll say that I'm against giving up when there's a chance of pulling through - concession rarely feels right to me - but making overarching statements is rarely anything but an exercise in foolishness. My goal is to combat the idea that it's optimal to concede, and I think I've made my point to the extent that it needs to be made. I'll admit that situations should probably be treated on a case-by-case basis.

Yeah. That's all the thoughts I feel comfortable sharing right now.

[callforjudgement]

It's excessive but it counts

There are absolutely scenarios that occur where the game is essentially over but it can still take a good amount of time for it to be actually finished

those scenarios are absolutely torturous to play as scum

An example. As soon as Javajoe24 hammered No Lynch, the remaining scum (Something_Smart) was mechanically caught, although town didn't know it until two real-life days later when Night ended. Nonetheless, I started trying to break the setup even harder, allowing for the outside possibility that SS was town who'd done something monumentally stupid rather than the simple explanation that he was scum (while still guaranteeing a 100% town win if SS was scum, which he was). The game could have stretched out quite a while if scum hadn't surrendered, three real-life days after the original No Lynch; it'd likely have lasted two more game Days, each which would have been around four real-life days long.

[Enter]

It's excessive but it counts

There are absolutely scenarios that occur where the game is essentially over but it can still take a good amount of time for it to be actually finished

those scenarios are absolutely torturous to play as scum

An example. As soon as Javajoe24 hammered No Lynch, the remaining scum (Something_Smart) was mechanically caught, although town didn't know it until two real-life days later when Night ended. Nonetheless, I started trying to break the setup even harder, allowing for the outside possibility that SS was town who'd done something monumentally stupid rather than the simple explanation that he was scum (while still guaranteeing a 100% town win if SS was scum, which he was). The game could have stretched out quite a while if scum hadn't surrendered, three real-life days after the original No Lynch; it'd likely have lasted two more game Days, each which would have been around four real-life days long.

Is it possible he could have won with the reasoning that he might have been monumentally stupid?

[callforjudgement]

Only if a townie did something incredibly antitown (like accidentally submitting the wrong action); the setup was broken enough by that point that we could choose any two players and get a guaranteed win if either of them were scum, and after what happened overnight, SS was always going to be one of those two players. It might be possible for scum to induce that to happen somehow, but it wouldn't be easy.

[Nancy Drew 39]

If scum are mechanically locked in a scenario where they have literally no chance of escaping but it could take 3-4 days to actually end the game, I would concede.

It's excessive but it counts

There are absolutely scenarios that occur where the game is essentially over but it can still take a good amount of time for it to be actually finished

those scenarios are absolutely torturous to play as scum

Playing through rough spots yes

If you manage to not find the one pr that manages to clear the rest of the lynch list and there's enough mislynches to get through the rest... then what's the point of continuing lol

or if there's enough associative information in the game where too many town are cleared systematically

or scum fall into a gambit that essentially clears half the playerlist

situations like that DO happen, mistakes are made all the time and some of them create a decisive disadvantage that would be pretty much impossible to come back from

plus, morale is a very strong attribute that is necessary for any defense. if the scumteam can't find any way to come back, the morale evaporates and there's no defense left.

both of those together are a good case for conceding

+1

[northsidegal]

Tbf the competent players tend to die before lylo

Competent town =/= competent players. Competent town is, when people work together and know how to find scum instead giving in to paranoia/apathy. Also, if your game reached LYLO/MYLO, it's probably was not very competent town to begin with

i disagree, i think perfectly competent and even good towns can still reach lylo/mylo. in certain situations i guess it's setup dependent: in vengecop, for instance, they had lynched scum just as much as they had lynched town by the day that lylo came around, there was just a relatively high ratio of scum to town to begin with.

i'd say that lynching scum twice and town twice in four days in a 3 scum setup is pretty decent.


(probably gonna delete this post in like 24 hours, don't really want this thread in my ego)


also, the town wincon has nothing to do with being alive or not being lynched, it has to do with all scum being dead. obviously knowingly lynching yourself is knowingly not lynching scum but that doesn't mean that it's directly playing against wincon. do i think it's a good idea? not generally, no. do i think it's gamethrowing / grounds for banning / blacklisting / whatever? also no.

also, there are certain really weird endgame scenarios in multiball that depend on the exact wording of your wincondition in which self-voting might be the correct move.

[Ramcius]

Tbf the competent players tend to die before lylo

Competent town =/= competent players. Competent town is, when people work together and know how to find scum instead giving in to paranoia/apathy. Also, if your game reached LYLO/MYLO, it's probably was not very competent town to begin with

i disagree, i think perfectly competent and even good towns can still reach lylo/mylo. in certain situations i guess it's setup dependent: in vengecop, for instance, they had lynched scum just as much as they had lynched town by the day that lylo came around, there was just a relatively high ratio of scum to town to begin with.

i'd say that lynching scum twice and town twice in four days in a 3 scum setup is pretty decent.


(probably gonna delete this post in like 24 hours, don't really want this thread in my ego)


also, the town wincon has nothing to do with being alive or not being lynched, it has to do with all scum being dead. obviously knowingly lynching yourself is knowingly not lynching scum but that doesn't mean that it's directly playing against wincon. do i think it's a good idea? not generally, no. do i think it's gamethrowing / grounds for banning / blacklisting / whatever? also no.

also, there are certain really weird endgame scenarios in multiball that depend on the exact wording of your wincondition in which self-voting might be the correct move.

If you take 2 scum 2 ML in vacuum, sure, it's decent, just like my statement is true in vacuum - you won't end up in LYLO, if you lynch same amount of scum as ML (assuming 3xscum +1 for town numbers or close to it). But you want discuss specific game, so let's do it. 2 scum 2 ML was average result, you have less room for mistake with less people, on top of that town should have more powerful abilities than usual or some other mechanical advantages comparing to games with higher town numbers. From this we can conclude that they didn't take full advantage of it either. So I can't call it decent result, just average

[Mulch]

I'm not going to read this thread but my tl;dr on self voting:

1) Effective as a wolf if you want to limit village from getting information [standard utilization]
2) Effective as both alignments if you want to use it as part of a stategy to avoid getting lynched [AtE]
3) Effective as a villager under specific circumstances, namely if you have mechanical knowledge that would be given to the town after you die/you get a kill if you die/the person you are being run up against you are confident is a villager and has a more powerful role/etc.

That's my perspective on it. I often see villagers self-vote out of frustration, too, which obviously isn't optimal but does happen.

[Eddie Cane]

VOTE: mbaki

Done posting here. Good luck town.

mbaki uses a self vote and heavy amounts of AtE in Mini 2046 to avoid mislynch and eventually win the game, it wasn't pretty but it worked

Regardless of whether you think it's healthy for the game, it can be a viable strategy to stop a mislynch that would otherwise lose you the game.

I've tactically self voted probably in something like 10 games out of the couple hundred mafia games I've played. I think I was town in all but one of them, and I think I won over half of them. I can go make stats if you really care. The important distinction here is that I never intended to get mislynched, I only wanted to make it look like I was okay dying or angry or whatever emotion I was faking that game to look townie. It wouldnt work if I did it every game, which is part of being self aware of your meta.You can call it unethical if you want, but I play mafia to teach me to argue better in life among other things, and appeal to emotion is a very effective tactic both in person and in mafia.

But I think this is against your point. I agree, it is very close to never good play to self vote with the intent to get lynched. Very very close, as either alignment. Sometimes, self hammering as scum might be right, but even then I think it's very very uncommon.

[Nancy Drew 39]

When I did it as town, it got me mislynched in one case and almost in another. Unless, you’re motivation is clearly protown, it’s a terrible strategy. In other words AtE self-voting is always a horrible idea. It gets read as scum flailing.