Another thread about WotM/WotC but its about replacements

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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:37 pm

Post by Alisae »

In post 24, FakeGod wrote:
In post 15, KittyMo wrote:The only thing I can really think of to avoid this issue is for players to preemptively tell mods who is on their blacklist before any actual replacements are needed. As a mod I'd be appreciative of anyone telling me that upfront.
This is where we are currently. Unless the players pre-emptively tell the mods to exclude, replacements are basically not going to be screened retroactively.

Is this good enough?
I’m happy about this considering the new replacement rules
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:38 pm

Post by PenguinPower »

In post 23, Alisae wrote:PP by that logic shouldn't player blacklists be something that's enforced since what if an alt is used to get around a blacklist
Site moderation acts on reports from the player base. I'm conveying what has been written previously, and while it has been explicitly stated that players "should not use an alt to get around another player or mod's blacklist" it is not apart of the official site rules.

If there is a concern, I would encourage players to report it so it can be reviewed by site moderation.
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:54 pm

Post by MaryJoLisa »

In post 23, Alisae wrote:PP by that logic shouldn't player blacklists be something that's enforced since what if an alt is used to get around a blacklist
I can't imagine that player blacklists can possibly be enforced by moderators. It would necessitate probably a lot of coding and hand-on account management for creating and maintaining player lists for each game.

What is the system for catching people who deliberately circumvent the alt system and create new accounts disconnected from their true mains?
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:03 pm

Post by Dunnstral »

In post 26, PenguinPower wrote:it has been explicitly stated that players "should not use an alt to get around another player or mod's blacklist"
How do you verify the legitimacy of a "player blacklist"

I think trying to create rules around that is a slippery slope
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:06 pm

Post by Dunnstral »

About the replacement thing, I think logistics wise it isn't feasible to take more time to verify with the players about a replacement - that's pretty disruptive, the game might need to be paused, etc, and will need to wait for the moderator and player to come online additional times (remember, prod timers are generally 48 hours on this site - it's not unreasonable to expect an extra 4 days for a replacement to come into the game if you have to verify with everyone, and then have the replacement online again at the right time
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:07 pm

Post by northsidegal »

In post 27, MaryJoLisa wrote:What is the system for catching people who deliberately circumvent the alt system and create new accounts disconnected from their true mains?
calm down there zakk
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:07 pm

Post by PenguinPower »

In post 28, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 26, PenguinPower wrote:it has been explicitly stated that players "should not use an alt to get around another player or mod's blacklist"
How do you verify the legitimacy of a "player blacklist"

I think trying to create rules around that is a slippery slope
I doubt I'll be able to give you an answer that will satisfy you as I've already given this response.

I'm conveying what has been written previously, and while it has been explicitly stated that players "should not use an alt to get around another player or mod's blacklist" it is not a part of the official site rules. If there is a concern, I would encourage players to report it so it can be reviewed by site moderation.
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:17 pm

Post by MaryJoLisa »

In post 30, northsidegal wrote:
In post 27, MaryJoLisa wrote:What is the system for catching people who deliberately circumvent the alt system and create new accounts disconnected from their true mains?
calm down there zakk
I just don't know how things work, that's all.
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:20 pm

Post by FakeGod »

In post 27, MaryJoLisa wrote:What is the system for catching people who deliberately circumvent the alt system and create new accounts disconnected from their true mains?
I just refer them to Kison, and he tells me whether they are alts or not. I assume he does it using the IP used or something.
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:25 pm

Post by MaryJoLisa »

In post 29, Dunnstral wrote:About the replacement thing, I think logistics wise it isn't feasible to take more time to verify with the players about a replacement - that's pretty disruptive, the game might need to be paused, etc, and will need to wait for the moderator and player to come online additional times (remember, prod timers are generally 48 hours on this site - it's not unreasonable to expect an extra 4 days for a replacement to come into the game if you have to verify with everyone, and then have the replacement online again at the right time
I think it's great if players can just tell the mod at the start of the game if they have some conflict with a player and to please not sub-in that person. It seems to me like it's in everyone's best interest to keep people apart who state that they want to be kept apart.

It becomes an issue if a player can't play with anyone else, but if it's only one person that is the problem, then yeah. Try to honor the player's request not to have that person subbed in.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:28 pm

Post by Dunnstral »

When you make an account you have to specify if it's an alt or hydra for the mods to know
My understanding is that this information is then stored on file somewhere easy to access (for site mods)

That method could be used if the alts aren't trying to evade site staff
Also, I'm curious, you're just being told whether they're alts, but not who they are, and do you just ask for accounts you're worried about or anyone you don't recognize
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:51 pm

Post by FakeGod »

In post 29, Dunnstral wrote:About the replacement thing, I think logistics wise it isn't feasible to take more time to verify with the players about a replacement - that's pretty disruptive, the game might need to be paused, etc, and will need to wait for the moderator and player to come online additional times (remember, prod timers are generally 48 hours on this site - it's not unreasonable to expect an extra 4 days for a replacement to come into the game if you have to verify with everyone, and then have the replacement online again at the right time
I agree with this. Replacements are disruptive.
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:55 pm

Post by FakeGod »

In post 35, Dunnstral wrote:Also, I'm curious, you're just being told whether they're alts, but not who they are, and do you just ask for accounts you're worried about or anyone you don't recognize
Whether they are alts or not.

I ask checks on accounts I'm worried about.
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:58 pm

Post by Tammy »

If there are people you legitimately can't play with, let the mod know who they are so they can't replace in.

The mods don't know who alts are, and this would be a bit of a pain, but if a *new* player tries to replace into your game, you could ask the site mods if they are an alt of the blacklisted player just to be sure if this is an issue. This obviously wouldn't help for people who create alts but don't report they're alts, or subvert bans by creating alts on a different IP address or whatever, but it is something.

But basically if someone replaces into a game and causes a player already in the game distress, whether they knew it would or not, the player replacing in should do the respectful thing and replace out. I realize this could also be abused, and sometimes you may not particularly like the person you're playing with and should suck it up because it's a game and personality conflicts happen, but the person already in the game should have the right of way so to speak.
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:35 am

Post by PenguinPower »

In post 33, FakeGod wrote:I just refer them to Kison, and he tells me whether they are alts or not. I assume he does it using the IP used or something.
Just an FYI, but Listmods can do this as well.
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:09 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 27, MaryJoLisa wrote:What is the system for catching people who deliberately circumvent the alt system and create new accounts disconnected from their true mains?
as a host, you can elect to disallow replacements from new accounts
since presumably an account w/ a decent slice of experience would be difficult to maintain as a super secret alt, even more so if the same behavioral issues that caused the main blacklist would also apply
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:07 pm

Post by Plotinus »

As a mod, if my players tell me about their blacklist, I'll honour it when considering replacements. If nobody tells me then I'll assume any replacement is okay. If I announce "X replaces Y" and a player PMs me saying "Please no" then I'll be a little annoyed that they didn't speak to the person and tell them not to replace into their games, but I'll honour it.

If you don't want to play with someone or know that they don't want to play with you, you shouldn't replace into a game that they're in. I have had people replacing into games I was modding and then be like "oh shit i didn't realise X was in this game, I hate playing with them," and that is annoying because my OP is always updated so you can see who is playing with 1 click.
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:40 am

Post by BNL »

I remembered a problem with replacement wotming that doesn't apply to signup wotming:

Suppose there is a player I have blacklisted because they play in a very antitown manner. If that player were to replace into one of my games, I would replace out.
But suppose I'm
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in a game with that player replacing in, and I would rather have that player stay in the game and complete the game with that player, so decide not to wotm that player.

This shows that replacing out due to blacklists can be alignment indicative, which is undesirable. A fix might be to get players' blacklists before the start of the game, but this will be inflexible if players want to change their blacklists during the game due to external factors (such as another game that completed during that game). I don't know what to say about this but I think it is worth discussion.



I feel like as long as we allow replacements on this site, there will be a lot of issues, not all of which can be dealt with in a way that doesn't disrupt the game, even in a non-alignment indicative way. However, our site prioritizes the health of our scummers more than our games, so compromises need to be made.
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:05 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

always modkill replacement requests
easy
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:27 am

Post by BNL »

...can we please not have joke responses

Also you can always force yourself to be replaced by not posting, so we either have to modkill flakers too (which I have seen before, but don't agree with), or just find a different solution.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:36 am

Post by FakeGod »

In post 43, Irrelephant11 wrote:always modkill replacement requests
easy
Killing the slots that replace out will have serious impact on the game state, and it gives desperate people incentive to force people to replace for free kills.
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:34 pm

Post by Jingle »

Having a public replacement queue for your game is an option if you're a high demand mod.

Players having the decency to not replace into games with players who don't want to play with them seems like a decent request.

Great mods ime generally have a list of people they will approach to replace into their games who are often low drama or have very few conflicts.
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:33 pm

Post by Krazy »

I think we should just go with WotA -- Wisdom of the All. Ban everyone from everyone game = ez
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:33 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 1, FakeGod wrote:I don't think there is an easy solution.

A mod can't ask the players whether a potential replacement is okay, because people can very easily abuse that system.
How do you mean?

I was thinking there could be a time period between the mod announcing the replacement and actually giving the role pm to the player so any objections can be pm'd to the mod.
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:45 pm

Post by Wisdom »

In post 41, Plotinus wrote:If I announce "X replaces Y" and a player PMs me saying "Please no" then I'll be a little annoyed that they didn't speak to the person and tell them not to replace into their games, but I'll honour it.
The problem is when you tell people not to replace in your games yet they do it anyway
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