New Newbie Setup

[Not Known 15]

Yeah it should be, I was 2 shot doc in an 18p and that seemed about right, 1 shot anything in a 9p should be about right.

In a semi-open, no. In a closed setup,yes.
In a semi-open, no because that usually means "Hey I am 1-shot X and I did Y Night 1" Day 2

[Not Known 15]

If we are talking about CLOSED newbie setups, I'd greenlist the following roles:
-Tracker
-Cop
-Doctor
-Nurse(Backup Doctor)
-Mason
-Rolecop
-Roleblocker
-Bodyguard
-Jailkeeper
and the modifiers
-X-shot
-X-shot Bulletproof

and, for Mafia
-Strongman

[northsidegal]

what exactly is the problem that introducing closed newbie setups is meant to solve?

[chennisden]

70% town WR

[Ircher]

Claiming strategies while keeping a balanced, predictable setup.

[popsofctown]

What if the newbie setup was just Alternating 9p (odd doc even cop)

Tell me what disasters would befall us.

[callforjudgement]

Endless theory discussion about when to claim.

I guess that might not be so bad.

[popsofctown]

Since winrates for newbies are pretty dang high, you could machofy the cop to squelch that discussion further. At that point the claiming strategy seems pretty unambiguous barring some kind of complex breadcrumbing lattice that I don't expect newbies to bother with.

[Spangled]

Since winrates for newbies are pretty dang high, you could machofy the cop to squelch that discussion further. At that point the claiming strategy seems pretty unambiguous barring some kind of complex breadcrumbing lattice that I don't expect newbies to bother with.

To be fair, ‘some kind of complex breadcrumbing lattice’ seems to be kind of what is expected of masons, so far, so...

[popsofctown]

That seems to counsel in favor of making some simple, fully open 9p (or a trio of them) the newbie setup.
A 10p I came up with recently seems to fit newbie queue alright, but I suspect there's lots of other acceptable options in the crevices of the wiki that could work.

[Spangled]

That seems to counsel in favor of making some simple, fully open 9p (or a trio of them) the newbie setup.
A 10p I came up with recently seems to fit newbie queue alright, but I suspect there's lots of other acceptable options in the crevices of the wiki that could work.

That 10p seems a bit complicated and complex in terms of assocs etc to be The Newbie Game, to be honest, and very difficult for a 3-newb team. But I agree; an open could work, and there are probably a fair few hiding in the wiki or the Open Discussion threads that could work.

[NaCl]

I believe that in the current newbie setup, there is not really a breaking strategy, but some form of optimal play that I just find icky, although I'm not sure how to avoid it.

Here, I have everyone say "If this lynches scum and I am a jailkeeper, I will jail <name>" prior to the hammer. I might be making some serious misunderstanding, but I believe that there isn't a disadvantage to town doing this? Because it means that if there is a jailkeeper that dies that night, we get a clear on a different player.

This isn't an issue that's occuring in all games, as far as I know. But unless I'm missing something (I hope I am), why shouldn't people do that before each lynch in every newbie game?

Now, it seems to me that that sort of micro-optimization is not something that should be encouraged in newbie games. Although that feels like it's an issue that could happen in pretty much every game where there's a known number of scum and the potential for a town roleblocker or jailkeeper. So maybe I should be doing this in every game instead

[chennisden]

If scum's kill fails to go through, they'll have a narrower pool of who targeted them? Idk, that's really iffy too. But also roleblockers, sooo

I think it's legitimately optimal and there's not a lot of reason not to

[NaCl]

Yeah, they will have a narrower pool. But it only applies if there is one scum left, so it doesn't really matter at that point.

I guess there's a slight disadvantage in the case where it's A2 and the goon dies, as the rb can target within the pool of potential jailkeepers targeting him, but there's still a tracker in that setup.

[popsofctown]

You can get this in a less cumbersome form when the jailkeeper simply breadcrumbs in the last twilight post. In an open setup that can become inferior to the hypoclaims because scum can look for the crumbs and find the jailkeeper so they can shoot the jk, but in a closed setup that's pretty much the answer, even if they find the crumb you can hypoclaims your fruit vendor targets if you want to so less is lost.



I think the break is reason enough to dislike the setup I want to see d3's go away

But I think this one is not as bad as the technical play from the previous d3 just because it occurs at end of day instead of beginning.

[skitter30]

Cop vs goons and Cop vs jailkeepers was considered a balanced setup for many years. Hell, Mafiauniverse bitches that we play townsided setups yet their version of cop 9er gives cops an inno on D1.

I don't think that it's time to throw out both of those setups yet. I also think that the changes to the setup as a whole favor scum even if they've lost some of their easy fakeclaims.

after having been involved in ~7 newbie games played under the new setup, i think we're underestimating the townsidedness associated with scum not really have safe fake-claims

[NotAJumbleOfNumbers]

Necroing this thread to throw in my 2 cents.

Why not give a few pre-planned tips in the Scum PT? It would be unbiased as well as give them some clue of what they're doing.

[BBmolla]

why not just tell scum what the setup is

[popsofctown]

why not just tell scum what the setup is

I think the town power on its face might also be too high, but I think this is a quick fix change that's justified by the observed winrates that should maybe just get tossed into the queue.

[BBmolla]

Interesting setup. Weird cop fest might be fun to play, but i actually really like the fact that scum is allowed to pick the setup rather than it being random. It might be a cool feature to add to the common newbie matrix, should stats show that it is too townsided. I personally think it kinda is, but i lack review logs and experience to say for sure.

^This is another option

[RadiantCowbells]

when you look at the d1 scum lynch rates of the finished games it should come to no surprise that the winrates are as high as they are. indeed i would speculate that the winrate in the games i'd observed would still be over 50% if the game was 7 vanilla townies and 2 mafia goons. take that as you will.

[popsofctown]

Run the masons setup over and over again, both the funnest setup and the closest to mountainous, and I'm pretty skeptical about the widely accepted axiom that introducing site newbies to mafia with a possibility matrix setup with complex claiming strategies for scum is a great idea.

Repeated use of the same setup over and over might decrease SE interest in the newbie queue, but every time I glance at the queue there are tons of SE's queueing so that should be ok.