Open Queue is dying Help

[BuJaber]

The state of the Open Queue is quite depressing.
Games take too long to fill, the mod queue is long, and there are barely any players signing up for games, many games ending up with pretty similar playerlists because of how little interest there is. What is surprising about this is that the open setup discussion subforum is one of the most active. So it seems more people are interested in setup design and discussion than playing an open setup.

We need YOUR help. Any contribution in any of the following ways will be appreciated:

- Ideas to attract more players to the open queue

- Ideas to improve the queue.

- if you don't play open games, share your reasons why

- if you play open games share your feedback

Some of my own proposals:

Form a group of respected open setup designers/reviewers/mods/listmods. For now let's call them the Open Queue Board or OQB.

Increase variety in the open queue by having a changing set of moddable setups for each specified period (say a month). This list of allowed setups for the month will be decided by the OQB. The list must contain a few tried-and-tested setup choices (preferred for first time mods) and some newly designed setups from the open setup discussion threads or challenges.

This list is then further reduced by then having a public poll on the new setups to be included, to have a way for the actual people who might sign up to have their say, that way you guarantee the popularity of the setups.

This might not be feasible every month so maybe every 3 months is better.

Anyway I feel like something needs to done and well best way is to hear from the players all over.. why are normal and theme games more attractive.

[Ircher]

I only play open games on marathon weekends mainly because I like piecing together what the setup is instead of having it all public in the beginning. Furthermore, open setups tend to get repetitive once you have played them enough.

That said, I don't think the queue is dying at all. It seems active enough, maybe not as active as the other queues, but it is still pretty active. We actually seem to be having the opposite issue for the other queues (normal, micro, mini theme): not enough moderators to fulfill demand. (Those queues seem to have a very short or empty moderator queue.)

[BNL]

Open Game queue used to be a rotation of open setups from the Wiki that were approved. These never got changed, which causes the queue to stall because the new players don’t like the setup.

Maybe some open games that were successful should be open to new moderators as well. I think the problem with the queue is that it is developed much less than others.

[nomnomnom]

Okay so before anything I have a f2f and chat mafia background.

These platforms 95% of the time use open setups. Personally for me one of the appeals of joining a mafia forum is because there is this secrecy with roles that's fun to work around. I guess it could be novelty that's going to wear off after a while, but yeah. My point here is that I burned out of open setups even before coming here. A problem I have with open setups of any kind is that after a while the game becomes mechanical and that's pretty much where I lose interest in the game. The interest of mafia for me is figuring people out by interactions, their reactions and whatnot. If it's a game that becomes locked by mechanics after a while, that's where I lose interest, and that's why I have apprehensions with open setups.

I am aware that the way open setups are here is a bit different because semi-opens are a thing and I can see that setup reviewers strive to make sure that mechanical-locks are not present. But let's just say that I am still a bit traumatized from those things and that I enjoy the novelty from the secrecy of closed setups

[BNL]

Actually people run open games here a lot but usually they are run in the micro/theme queue instead, because they are themed/experimental. Even if they weren’t, they still would have to run in those queues due to queue rules. Even if those were allowed to run in those queues, they wouldn’t because of the waiting time along with terrible moderation of that queue.

I think the Open queue needs to be repurposed and get an overhaul.

[nomnomnom]

Actually people run open games here a lot but usually they are run in the micro/theme queue instead, because they are themed/experimental. Even if they weren’t, they still would have to run in those queues due to queue rules. Even if those were allowed to run in those queues, they wouldn’t because of the waiting time along with terrible moderation of that queue.

I think the Open queue needs to be repurposed and get an overhaul.

With the way you wrote that post you're making it sound like the open queue should be somewhat more classic and less experimental? Did I understand correctly?

[Creature]

I think it has a lot to do with many uninteresting setups being around lately.

idk what happened with the setups with a predetermined variety of role combinations.

When the game is too predictable it gets boring.

[popsofctown]

Well, how does the closed setup discussion forum compare to the open setup discussion forum, tho.. setup design is fun to discuss, and the idea that someone might run the thing you are discussing adds to that. Closed setups would only be able to be discussed after they were already run. Kinda like the difference between watching a prerecorded basketball game and a live one, kinda. And mods might want fewer forums to display their setup-meta. So naturally we don't have a closed setup discussion forum.
One thing I will point out is that I think "skinning" an open setup in some kind of flavor is an appealing thing that makes it more inviting and fun. There's extra reason to do this in the open queue, that's the queue where you can't accidentally flavorslip more information than you mean to to your players. But like, right now we have the queues setup "Normal, Micro, Theme, Open". And the guidelines on the queues have implied for as long as I can remember that "theme" on the theme queue simultaneously applies to unique experimental mechanics, and adding a heavy amount of flavor to your game. And I think people are just kinda following this guideline too much and it's a bad guideline if taken as a discouragement from heavily using flavor in the other queues. It makes no sense as a way of classifying or categorizing the game in the queues and I'd like to see that removed in any sort of queue overhaul. <Player Count> <Closedness> <Role Normalcy> are currently used to determine what setups are appropriate for which queues in a way that is positive, because not every game should be closed, not every game should have normal roles, and not every game should be huge. <Flavor> is being used as a variable also and that doesn't make any sense because every game would be better with more flavor. I think some players are sometimes nonplussed by flavor, but I don't know anyone who avoids it.

[Creature]

I'm now wondering what if someone went like "I'm gonna run one 13p open but I won't tell what setup it is".

[BuJaber]

I only play open games on marathon weekends mainly because I like piecing together what the setup is instead of having it all public in the beginning. Furthermore, open setups tend to get repetitive once you have played them enough.

That said, I don't think the queue is dying at all. It seems active enough, maybe not as active as the other queues, but it is still pretty active. We actually seem to be having the opposite issue for the other queues (normal, micro, mini theme): not enough moderators to fulfill demand. (Those queues seem to have a very short or empty moderator queue.)

Some weeks almost more people /in to mod than /in to play. At least it feels that way.

[BuJaber]

Okay so before anything I have a f2f and chat mafia background.

These platforms 95% of the time use open setups. Personally for me one of the appeals of joining a mafia forum is because there is this secrecy with roles that's fun to work around. I guess it could be novelty that's going to wear off after a while, but yeah. My point here is that I burned out of open setups even before coming here. A problem I have with open setups of any kind is that after a while the game becomes mechanical and that's pretty much where I lose interest in the game. The interest of mafia for me is figuring people out by interactions, their reactions and whatnot. If it's a game that becomes locked by mechanics after a while, that's where I lose interest, and that's why I have apprehensions with open setups.

I am aware that the way open setups are here is a bit different because semi-opens are a thing and I can see that setup reviewers strive to make sure that mechanical-locks are not present. But let's just say that I am still a bit traumatized from those things and that I enjoy the novelty from the secrecy of closed setups

I can understand that, people like different things.
From my experience there isn't a huge difference in mechanical talk/discussion between open and closed setups, but open setups skip the whole trying to guess the setup and catching scum through claims and things like that. In many cases it becomes a lot more 'pure' as a mafia game. When people know what the setup is they are a lot less distracted and can really focus on figuring out motivations, interactions, intentions, etc.

[BuJaber]

Actually people run open games here a lot but usually they are run in the micro/theme queue instead, because they are themed/experimental. Even if they weren’t, they still would have to run in those queues due to queue rules. Even if those were allowed to run in those queues, they wouldn’t because of the waiting time along with terrible moderation of that queue.

I think the Open queue needs to be repurposed and get an overhaul.

With the way you wrote that post you're making it sound like the open queue should be somewhat more classic and less experimental? Did I understand correctly?

He's saying the opposite actually. In terms of setups the open game has become sort of stale and uninteresting to people.

And that is partly why I was suggesting to try to bring a lot more new setups to the mix.

It's just there's also a risk of scaring people off with unbalanced or poorly designed setups, so you need some form of review.

[BuJaber]

is being used as a variable also and that doesn't make any sense because every game would be better with more flavor. I think some players are sometimes nonplussed by flavor, but I don't know anyone who avoids it.

I think your whole post makes a pretty strong point. Flavor does seem to attract people and/or keep the game a bit more interesting during the game.

[Creature]

Can we design open games with mafia-aligned killing roles (other than factional kill)?

[popsofctown]

A lot of setups that look imbalanced are actually balanced. I didn't /in for Psyche's Liars and Millers when it first appeared, but about the third time I read the setup, I realized it is much more low swing than I initially thought. Probably. Anyway I'm definitely sure it's possible for a stable setup to not appear that way. 2 Mafia 7 Paranoid Cops!!!
On the other hand games that look balanced aren't always so. A review process could be helpful.

[popsofctown]

Can we design open games with mafia-aligned killing roles (other than factional kill)?

Do you mean games where the mafia have more NK output than 1 per night, or games where the mafia have a strongman, ninja, poisoner, or etc that is central to the design of the setup?

[Creature]

Can we design open games with mafia-aligned killing roles (other than factional kill)?

Do you mean games where the mafia have more NK output than 1 per night, or games where the mafia have a strongman, ninja, poisoner, or etc that is central to the design of the setup?

The former.

Like, one other site sometimes add mafia vigilantes/poisoners that can counter an excessive number of town roles/potential clears.

[popsofctown]

That makes some sense.

Glancing around the games in the Open Queue, it looks like there's lots of people /inning to mod games that are "mountainous, but here's this one core twist on the mountainous." Those don't really qualify as normal games because they have a special mechanic, so they have to be either opens or themes. Like I said in a previous post, I think the way the queue is presented right now is like, "you can run this open game in a theme queue and put some cool flavor about how this special mountainous mechanic is a metaphor for the ring of Sauron, or you can be lazy and not feel up to that and run the same setup in the open queue with no flavor and that makes you an equally good mod". So we have a bunch of those setups in the open queue, few of them run in the theme queue (although I'm in Guns & Roses which is one of those quasimountainous opens that was done in theme queue). I think mountainous setups are pretty sweet but Jingle informs me they are bad and no one wants to play them so maybe those are what makes the queue fill slower. No one noticed Clemency's unflavored mostly-mountainous didn't fill because he siteflaked, hopefully if he siteflaked completely enough I am able to pick that as an example of what I'm talking about without making someone feel bad because that's not my goal here.
It may have less to do about flavor and more to do with how people feel about mountainous, or the nature of the special mechanics people are applying to mountainous, but regardless I think that might be the group of games creating the slog.

[MaryJoLisa]

I don't like the closed setup games, so I'm sticking with the newbie and open queues for awhile. I plan to sign up for the first open game that fits into my schedule, not too big, and is recognizably a mafia game. Been looking for awhile now.

[popsofctown]

I should design and mod a setup based purely around post 18.

[OkaPoka]

perhaps its time to get a queue that has an emphasis on night play

[RadiantCowbells]

You mean a townsided queue?

[OkaPoka]

itd probs be more swingy but power is fun

[Creature]

You mean a townsided queue?

Town of Salem

[MaryJoLisa]

I should design and mod a setup based purely around post 18.

I can't tell if that's playfully sarcastic or serious. If serious, semi-opens are also awesome!

I can't find the stepping stone from the newbie games to the normal games. I know lots of players like the complex closed setups because they're understandably bored with the simpler setups, but from my POV, the normals range anywhere between a very basic game to a very complex game using combinations of roles and modifiers that are designed to take very advanced players by surprise. Players can't even plan to play a game on a targeted level because it's a crap shoot what you're going to get when you sign up.