dance games

[chennisden]

if you play the dance setup optimally and town's top townreads are even slightly more likely to be town than average then the setup is absurdly hard for scum.

u dont even have to play close to optimal tbh

the setup is hard for scum

[FakeGod]

you guys should go look at some of the stuff said postgame after the scum wins lol

don't forget that scum won the first three iterations of the setup and players were widely convinced that this was heavily scumsided setup

[RadiantCowbells]

towns are very strong right now relative to scum

[OkaPoka]

ban anime girl avatars

anime girl avatars are hard to lynch and usually anime girls are town based on rng

[RadiantCowbells]

does annie count as anime girl

[OkaPoka]

yes there r some very hard to lynch annie avatars

only league waifu u can have is old lollipoppy

[OkaPoka]

this is an unlynchable annie avatar~

[chennisden]

FG where was the math for the dance setup? Or am I mistaken that you had posted it somewhere.

I don't remember.

I edited in the identities of the IC players.

I know for sure you posted it and I think it was merchant's dance.

[RadiantCowbells]

Disregard EV

[chennisden]

viewtopic.php?p=8152734#p8152734

[chennisden]

Disregard EV

imo this

[chennisden]

the setup is

1) batshit townsided if town dont throw
2) encouraging town to throw

how do we fix this?

[chennisden]

2) is harder to fix.

as for 2) this might be a starting point:

take out the ic

. i think this gets town out of the "make a towncore when it's way too early" mindset. like it's technically +EV duh but overreliance on the IC gives scum a kill they don't have to explain. so i think in reality removing the IC won't change winrates that much, while it will give the IC and their partner a chance to participate in the game which makes it more fun, and gives scum some freedom (and some skill required) when submitting the nightkill.

as for 1) in addition to taking out the ic, maybe make it 16 players and 4 scum, but scum's wincon is that they have to have a pair of 2 scums alive. maybe genders can be randed and scum can choose how many scum to allocate per gender (as in, 1/3 or 2/2?) this may also take out a part of the paranoia/lolleave factor or disencourage it (fixing 1) a little i guess). because

in theory

endgame should be rly hard as T/S vs T/T means they have to get the T/T to lynch themselves which should be hard. and T/S vs T/T & T/T should be REALLY hard. i guess this punishes bad scumplay more but also rewards good scumplay while also incentivizing good townplay?

[FakeGod]

Nah

I'm fine with the setup

[OkaPoka]

make everyone a secret alt so u dont get to use meta as a way to locktown a few people and suddenly this game is very fair

[FakeGod]

make everyone a secret alt so u dont get to use meta as a way to locktown a few people and suddenly this game is very fair

this sounds fun

[chennisden]

make everyone a secret alt so u dont get to use meta as a way to locktown a few people and suddenly this game is very fair

i would think that it might encourage people to say "you should KNOW who i am and LOCKTOWN ME" and it doesnt matter if there's substance behind the claim - it gets toxic.

regardless YEA we should DO THAT

[chennisden]

ill give u $10 and an ice cream if u make it gay too.

[OkaPoka]

make everyone a secret alt so u dont get to use meta as a way to locktown a few people and suddenly this game is very fair

i would think that it might encourage people to say "you should KNOW who i am and LOCKTOWN ME" and it doesnt matter if there's substance behind the claim - it gets toxic.

regardless YEA we should DO THAT

people who do this kinda ruin the spirit of a secret alt game

i mean at this point just go and "oops main slip what i do my dudes"

[chennisden]

tbh the only way to do this is to have strict standards on who u let in.

but i think it'd probably be mostly obvious the kind of playerlist that would in. there are different groups of players i guess and there's a very distinct group of people who play this type of weird theme game with way different central mechanics. so it'd end up being obvious who'd sign up for the most part

[the worst]

SECRET ALT DANCE GAME WHEN TO TEST THEORIES

like the secret alt dance game idea a lot.

also big egopost

[the worst]

just to go on the record i didn't enjoy the one dance game i played
it was juuuust after the peak of my scum ability and i was promptly notified by krazy that i'd just be policy lynched regardless of what i posted

i like to tell myself i got disheartened/replaced out because i wasn't given an opportunity to play, rather than because of the setup - but i'm happy to operate as a sceptic all the same.

[Blake Belladonna]

I'm never playing the gay version again. I don't think it works in practice.

[popsofctown]

Aside from balance, the setup has major issues with how meta plays into it. Apparently from what I skimmed Croag got left out in gay dance, she's a very new player on site. I'm sure that it didn't have totally zero to do with her play, but it's not fair for it to be a factor at all. "8 townies, 2 mafia, each night the player with the lowest score in the SUPP dies" may or may not be balanced but it's not a good thing to do.

[Blake Belladonna]

That's because the gay version has less player agency in picking partners than the straight version, pops.

One pairing pretty severely affects all other players in that same pool.