Open-Sourced Open

[chennisden]

Similar to grand idea but I explicitly want 1) singleball 2) actually good roles.

I'll periodically update the OP with a list of good roles and some amount of points that reflects the power of the role. (As a baseline, VT = 10 points and Mafia Goon = 160 points.) I will be making the initial decision but am open to feedback on point values.

For

non-marathon games,

you can have all the players choose their preference of points from 1) low-power, 2) medium power, 3) high power. Then rand a player and use their choice. (The exact value of "low-power" and etc should be decided based on player size.)

Then rand an integer from -10 to 10 inclusive and give it to the mafia. Then send them a list of all the scum roles and allow them to pick roles that such that the sum of their point values is less than this rand integer.

(I am very open to suggestions on setup generation because it feels breakable.)

For

marathon games,

you should probably just rand the town roles and keep randing scum roles until you get something reasonable.

Spoiler: ROLES (Point values ADDED)

TOWN

Town Ascetic Cop

(150 points)

(Post 3)

Town Cop

(145 points)

(Post 18)

Town 2-Shot Neighbourizing Hider

(130 points)

(Post 26)

MAFIA

Mafia Neighborizer

(210 points)

(Post 37)

Mafia 1-shot Ascetic

(180 points)

(Post 43)

Mafia Compulsive Visitor

(130 points)

(Post 15)

Mafia Illusion

(100 points)

(Post 45)

Spoiler: ROLES (Point values TBD)

TOWN

MAFIA

Mafia Simple Rolecop

(Post 5)

Mafia Traitor Loyal Neighborizer

(Post 2)

Spoiler: Third-Parties?

Multiball and stuff like Survivor/SK would not work well with the point system due to the swing that scumsiding/townsiding can create. However, making separate scumteams, like Werewolves, would work! The moderator could then just choose which scumteam to use, or randomize it. (I think most likely people will pick the Mafia team as it is more fleshed out.) This could create fun role interactions and another layer of depth.

[chennisden]

(Also please don't spam 100 copies of weak roles, I'll only add it once. Duplicates will be allowed in setup generation.)

[OkaPoka]

i like this idea

but how will u handle traitors?

this role maybe only scum can pick if there is a heavy point value for town?

Mafia Traitor Loyal Neighborizer

[Gamma Emerald]

Town Ascetic Cop

- added (marking for my own convenience) - chennis

[Gamma Emerald]

Town Simple Doctor

[Gamma Emerald]

Mafia Simple Rolecop

I think scum should get a level of power based on town power, like in Haunted Village

[Spangled]

Mafia Simple Rolecop

I think scum should get a level of power based on town power, like in Haunted Village

But how do you calculate that?

Town Watcher

[chennisden]

Mafia Simple Rolecop

I think scum should get a level of power based on town power, like in Haunted Village

Agreed, and the idea is we assign each role card a level of power.

[chennisden]

i like this idea

but how will u handle traitors?

this role maybe only scum can pick if there is a heavy point value for town?

Mafia Traitor Loyal Neighborizer

In theory this is a pretty powerful role since if you recruit one guy, you can say "hi im ur traitor" and you essentially have added been added to the PT since ur buddy can tell you who the team is.

To even that out though...

town disloyal neighborizer

[chennisden]

Mafia Simple Rolecop

I think scum should get a level of power based on town power, like in Haunted Village

This might as well be scum nea for most cases of balancing. If VT=10 and Mafia Goon=35, this might be a solid 55 points

[chennisden]

I also thought of something else. You could make a third scumteam (like Werewolves) in the list of rolecards. When generating the setup, you just use one scumteam. This can create more Wifom/interesting interactions

[OkaPoka]

i like this idea

but how will u handle traitors?

this role maybe only scum can pick if there is a heavy point value for town?

Mafia Traitor Loyal Neighborizer

In theory this is a pretty powerful role since if you recruit one guy, you can say "hi im ur traitor" and you essentially have added been added to the PT since ur buddy can tell you who the team is.

To even that out though...

town disloyal neighborizer

Yep it's essentially another member of the scumteam that needs a night to link up (I would dislike playing normal traitors and I don't want to have unfun roles)

I suppose this role can be used to replace a vt for logistical purposes but def be very powerful scumwise

[chennisden]

What's so good about being a traitor anyway though?

[chennisden]

I would say your traitor role is 25 points since it is good utility for mafia, but worse than a normal goon.

[chennisden]

My "conuter-role" is probably worth a little more than a cop, however much that's worth.

[OkaPoka]

Having a traitor is basically increasing the scumteam by one person which is really really strong so I think in order to ever reach that you some negative utility pickups or a really heavy town powered setup.

Since scum are selecting their own roles and normalness isn't a guideline I think?

Negative utility scum roles

Mafia Flagbearer

Upon the lynch of this player, Mafia loses.

Mafia Compulsive Visitor

added. - chennis

Basically can't nightkill.

Fredo

The first time you are targeted by a night action, you will reveal to your targetter the alignment of one random player in your faction.
(This is not as bad as it seems because scum can target their own but its still pretty negative utility as it requires scum to sacrifice night actions)

Guilt-ridden Goon

If you perform the night kill, you will commit suicide at the end of the next night.

Mafia Priest

You cannot hammer, otherwise you will be killed before your vote goes through.

[chennisden]

Also the "vt = 10, goon=35" baseline is bad because I did my math wrong.

So this is how I chose the baseline. vt = 10 was arbitrary.

According to EV project, 11-2 has a 60% scum WR. so if G=goon and V=townie, 11v/(2g)=0.4/0.6. So g=11*0.6/0.4v=11*3/2*10=165

[chennisden]

round to 160 because i think there's some upward room for error in the power level.

[chennisden]

TOWN COP

(145)

In 2d3 town won COP+6VT vs 2 GOON 39% of the time.

If C=cop and we give mafia goon the 160 power baseline then

(60+C)/320=0.39/0.61

0.61(60+C)=0.39(320)

C is around 144. For rounding purposes, C=145.

added. - chennis

[chennisden]

Ascetic cop cannot be healed and cannot be roleblocked. I would probably say it's 150 - close enough to actual cop, but just a little better.

[Gamma Emerald]

Mafia Simple Rolecop

I think scum should get a level of power based on town power, like in Haunted Village

But how do you calculate that?

Town Watcher

Generally there's a certain balance to be had in a game. Like generally Cop + JK is considered pretty balanced in a 13p with 3 scum, at least as an open. When closed you'll see a weak town role in there too most likely. So if town has a total above what Cop + JK + let's say 1-shot Vigilante, then probably add in some scum PRs, based on how much more town has. Since town will probably have very few vanilla scum will likely have some decent roles.

Town Miller

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually I just realized your math is kinda bad if I'm seeing it right. If VT = 10 and goon = 35, and equal is the point you call balanced, that would imply 7:2 mountainous is balanced which it is so not

[chennisden]

Correct - that's why I re-did the math in post 16 and got 160.

[chennisden]

i like this idea

but how will u handle traitors?

this role maybe only scum can pick if there is a heavy point value for town?

Mafia Traitor Loyal Neighborizer

Town Ascetic Cop

Town Simple Doctor

Mafia Simple Rolecop

I think scum should get a level of power based on town power, like in Haunted Village

Mafia Simple Rolecop

I think scum should get a level of power based on town power, like in Haunted Village

But how do you calculate that?

Town Watcher

i like this idea

but how will u handle traitors?

this role maybe only scum can pick if there is a heavy point value for town?

Mafia Traitor Loyal Neighborizer

In theory this is a pretty powerful role since if you recruit one guy, you can say "hi im ur traitor" and you essentially have added been added to the PT since ur buddy can tell you who the team is.

To even that out though...

town disloyal neighborizer

adding all of these eventually.

[chennisden]

Having a traitor is basically increasing the scumteam by one person which is really really strong so I think in order to ever reach that you some negative utility pickups or a really heavy town powered setup.

Since scum are selecting their own roles and normalness isn't a guideline I think?

Negative utility scum roles

Mafia Flagbearer

Upon the lynch of this player, Mafia loses.

Mafia Compulsive Visitor

Basically can't nightkill.

Fredo

The first time you are targeted by a night action, you will reveal to your targetter the alignment of one random player in your faction.
(This is not as bad as it seems because scum can target their own but its still pretty negative utility as it requires scum to sacrifice night actions)

Guilt-ridden Goon

If you perform the night kill, you will commit suicide at the end of the next night.

Mafia Priest

You cannot hammer, otherwise you will be killed before your vote goes through.

i want to be a little conservative about this

im feeling bad about fredo/flagbearer

ill prolly add guilt-ridden and priest though the latter can ruin lylo and the former is kinda not great

adding Mafia Compulsive Visitor

because that's clever.