Quickhammers based on Incorrect VCs

[Something_Smart]

If scum are in a position where they would compromise themselves to quickhammer, its smart to count the votes themselves.

I mean, of course it is. But that doesn't mean the mod gets to blame the players if they don't.

[Ankamius]

Players shouldn't expect the mod to bail them out of their mistakes either

[Dunnstral]

I'm not sure why you shifted the conversation to scum quickhammering in lylo when the topic was more general than that

[Ankamius]

Because that's the most controversial and potentially compromising application of it

If someone is hammering just to hammer or for reasons that don't really have an affect on alignment, then it's just mod interference to count non-hammers as hammers

[popsofctown]

I don't see a meaningful distinction between scum quickhammering someone because they'd be happy to trade 1 for 1 and a townie quickhammering someone because they feel unusually confident about the lynch.

[Amrun]

I don’t think it matters. Flip when the actual right amount of votes have been reached, regardless of mistakes or gamestate.

If your mistake as a mod affected the game, that’s unfortunate and a lesson to be learned and you owe the players an apology. But flipping or not flipping will affect gamestate. Might as well flip it correctly. The mistake has happened either way.

[Espeonage]

In Pokemon at a tournament everyone would be punished, and the game would be played as per what should have happened if there had been no issues if it's possible. So don't flip them.

But hey, these are games with no real world bearing so who cares, just pick something and stick to it. Maybe stick it in your rule set "If I mod error with a vote count I'm gonna retrace to what is meant to have happened." Or if you lean the other way, "if I make a mistake play on from my mod posts, if I fuck up your vote, move it back to where you actually wanted it, lol sorry."

Now no one can get mad when you do it bc it's in your game ruleset and people who have read your rules will do their own vote count before hammering.

[TemporalLich]

In Pokemon at a tournament everyone would be punished, and the game would be played as per what should have happened if there had been no issues if it's possible. So don't flip them.

But hey, these are games with no real world bearing so who cares, just pick something and stick to it. Maybe stick it in your rule set "If I mod error with a vote count I'm gonna retrace to what is meant to have happened." Or if you lean the other way, "if I make a mistake play on from my mod posts, if I fuck up your vote, move it back to where you actually wanted it, lol sorry."

Now no one can get mad when you do it bc it's in your game ruleset and people who have read your rules will do their own vote count before hammering.

Both are direct mod influences imo, but the latter is worse as it can change the votes to something that was never true at one point in time.

[Zachrulez]

I think the slot needs to flip if the lynch threshold has ever been reached in a game day. Just because the mod isn't aware of the threshold right away doesn't magically make it go away. (The players should be aware of how close they are to a lynch with or without mod errors.)

What's more fun is when a mod thinks the threshold has been reached when it hasn't and flips the player. Mostly because that's an irreversible mod error once it's done.

[Gamma Emerald]

Or maybe like some kind of brand new BB code feature that summons SXTLGaiden to post a gif of a hammer alongside your vote, and the vote can't hammer people with out that.

Miss that guy.

I think I had ONE game with that person

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I feel like there's an overwhelming response of people saying A because that's just a thing thats been ingrained into the modding culture, but they're not really considering the mod error part. You posted a wrong vc. Someone was hammered because you made a wrong vc. To me, it only makes sense that you reset the votes since a decision was made based on your mod error. You shouldn't be penalizing the players because you aren't doing your job correctly.

If anything, Ramicus' response is the one I like the most, but maybe I'm biased?
Like I'm not really seeing anyone saying why A is the best course of action.

Either way, if I fuck up a VC in the future and it results in a hammer, I am probably just going to reset the votes to the last vc.

So based on this it seems the question is about undercounting votes
I’d go with A unless you make it clear B is a thing, voting is a constant while imo VCs aren’t
Basically, go with what the votes are, not what the VC is

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I wouldn't be upset by a mod doing this, but the mod doing this would then be an additional, unintended, talking point for the game. "Micc didn't rewind the clock here and they were town, but he did rewind the clock here so maybe they're scum?" for example. Regardless of the intentions, I think making the call subjective based on gamestate is the wrong call, and I'm against mods influencing a game after the dice are rolled unless that's a feature of the game.

Mod Wine is the best kind of wine because if you drink it you get punished for being an idiot when ur wrong

I’ll bitch-slap anyone for drinking forbidden mod wine regardless of whether they’re right, but if they’re wrong that means they actually pay for it

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In mtg (at least when I was active):

https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg1-4/

tl;dr

It's a head judge discretionary thing and is only really done if no information is gained. (indestructible creature is put into a graveyard after being dealt damage and it's noticed before turn cycle passes.) To convert that into mafia terms, it would be "Have the listmod decide." And honestly, having the listmod decide without any alignment knowledge would probably be a fair choice. In mafia, though, the decision to vote IS a gain of information, necessarily.

My reservation, however, comes from the following simplified 2x2:

Town accidentally hammers town: proscum.
Town accidentally hammers scum: protown.
Scum accidentally hammers town: proscum.
Scum accidentally hammers scum: protown.

In which situations do you rewind? In which situations do you let it be? If scum is hammering 'accidentally' does that change anything? If town is hammering 'accidentally' does that change anything?

And yeah, faking an accidental hammer is a real thing. Do you punish the scum player who made the choice to hammer a townie but says it was an accident by rewinding because of your mistake? If you rewind in the case of fake accidents but not real ones or with some alignment combinations but not others, how do you resolve the issue that that can spew alignments? If you rewind for some alignment pairings but not others, how do you resolve the issue that it spews alignments?

I'm not saying that making the choice to rewind is objectively wrong nor that I would be angry if a mod made that decision and it harmed my wincon. It's a reaction to a situation which sucks. I, personally, believe that letting the cards fall where they are and apologizing is the best course of action, though.

What Micc is suggesting doesn’t seem to take what alignment is hammering and being hammered into account, merely “did anything come out as a result of the not-hammer that can’t be taken back?” So if scum is falsely hammered and reveals they were scum, you probably have to still flip that, along with a cop that outed its results thinking it was going to be dead soon.

[Nancy Drew 39]

This actually happened to me while I was modding my micro that just finished. I don’t exactly know if I’m stupid for asking this, but what is the correct thing to do if you post an incorrect VC and then a hammer results from that incorrect VC?
A. (What most mods are probably going to answer) Flip the slot anyway. (Also, this is what I did because its the “safe” thing to do. I don’t feel like risking my game on the other option when I don’t exactly have a 2nd opinion on it, and I don’t really want to inconvenience my players by having them wait 24 hours just to ask this stupid question if its stupid)
B. Fix your votecount and reset the current votecount to match that votecount.

See, I honestly feel like B is the correct thing to do. A player shouldn’t have to be keeping track of the votes, its simply not their job. Flipping the slot because you fucked up a VC is kinda a dick move to the player because they made the play that they did because your VC was incorrect, and they thought it was correct.

So why does A happen?
Is it because they don’t want to spew any slot any alignments? My issue with that is that if your VC was correct, that hammer wouldn’t have happened on the first place. If your VC was incorrect, then good job, you as a mod impacted your game by creating a gamestate that would not have existed if your VC was correct if you decide to flip that slot.
Is it because it could potentially ruin a scum quick hammer? My issue with that is scum shouldn’t be exploiting a mod’s mistake to get an advantage.

Idunno, am I stupid?
Lets talk about this.

+1

I agree with this but once a player’s been already flipped, you either have to continue or cancel the game, right?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Wait, wait, it was accidental hammer and not quickhammer? I guess I misread too, cause when I see quickhammer, I assume someone intentionally hammered without waiting other people to agree to it

In that case def B, reset votes and let people vote again and they can reach majority again, if that was their actual intention. I don't see how accidental hammer might spew anything, putting non hammer vote on someone isn't condemning or anything, it's intentional hammering that brings attention on you

I think so long as no flip has occurred, you can and should obviously do B but you compromise the game, if you don’t kill the flipped player. I think if the hammer was inevitable, it’s probably less of an issue but I definitely do agree with Alisae here, that the onus of correct VCs should always be on the mod > the players.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I feel like there's an overwhelming response of people saying A because that's just a thing thats been ingrained into the modding culture, but they're not really considering the mod error part. You posted a wrong vc. Someone was hammered because you made a wrong vc. To me, it only makes sense that you reset the votes since a decision was made based on your mod error. You shouldn't be penalizing the players because you aren't doing your job correctly.

If anything, Ramicus' response is the one I like the most, but maybe I'm biased?
Like I'm not really seeing anyone saying why A is the best course of action.

Either way, if I fuck up a VC in the future and it results in a hammer, I am probably just going to reset the votes to the last vc.

I obviously agree, so long as the player hasn’t already been flipped. Is it unfair to that player? Absolutely but you really don’t have much choice after that between killing the player or canceling the game.

[Nancy Drew 39]

In most situations, scenario B has the potential to impact the game in a greater way than scenario A

And no, it's not the players job to keep track of votes, or go over it themself.

Agree but this kind of mod error definitely does compromise the game to some extent, depending on the context.

[TemporalLich]

Thinking about this, it should have to explicitly be stated in your ruleset if you want any variant of B to happen.

By default, the votes should not lie, even in the unfortunate event that the VC lies.

As a parallel to this, double-check your VC before flipping someone.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Thinking about this, it should have to explicitly be stated in your ruleset if you want any variant of B to happen.

By default, the votes should not lie, even in the unfortunate event that the VC lies.

As a parallel to this,

double-check your VC before flipping someone.

+1