The Never Bus Claim

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think scum overbuses and over distances, there are much better ways to play imo.

[Zenith]

From the wiki:

A trust tell fits both of the following criteria:

The player insists that they only do this behavior as a certain alignment, and never as any other alignment.
The player, over the course of multiple games, only does this behavior as a certain alignment, and never as any other alignment.

The first criterion on its own may be a lie, but may still be punishable as a trust tell in the making, depending on the severity (see also the rule on promises).

The second criterion is a meta tell. There is a blurry line at a player knowing that they only perform some behavior as a given alignment and the player actively advertising it for personal gain - typically this activity is punishable when the latter occurs.

In addition, trust tells often degrade your chances of winning as one alignment (usually scum) for an increased chance of winning as another alignment (usually town). This is playing against your Win Condition and punishable in its own right.

So even if the claim is a lie, it could still be punishable?

(see also the rule on promises)

I tried directly searching for this on the wiki and google but search didn't turn up anything. So maybe is hiding in a list of rules somewhere?

[popsofctown]

This is in the forum rules for mafiascum.net, game specific rules, rule 2. To some extent maybe it is hiding, yes.

[*]Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc. Using

knowledge

from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

[Nancy Drew 39]

This is in the forum rules for mafiascum.net, game specific rules, rule 2. To some extent maybe it is hiding, yes.

[*]Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc. Using

knowledge

from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Trust_Tell

[popsofctown]

I think the bolded is poorly worded and is trying to communicate the common golden rule "pretending to break a rule = breaking a rule", which applies to many rules. If your first post in a game is, "I'm going to start of pattern of beginning every game where I'm town with a self vote, and beginning every game where I'm scum with a vote for the mod. VOTE: popsofctown" and it's a lie because you have no intention of following through, or perhaps already a lie because you rolled scum, it's enforceable before you carry out the subsequent steps because even though you haven't thrown this game and won't throw any future ones, you've accessed a line of play that wouldn't be available if you always played in a respectable manner and represented yourself as such.

It's the same for other rules, say you got run up to L-1 and, without using the edit feature because the thread has properly disabled it, posted "I'm going to post my role so that a couple people can unvote but I'm going to edit it out in two hours so they mafia won't know whether to roleblock me, I'm a

popsofctown edited this post at 3:12 a.m.

". Without actually violating a rule you've gained an advantage by treating rules with an amount of disregard that makes that play option possible. That has to also be enforceable, otherwise people who never cheat lose some edge, and ideally people who never cheat lose as little edge as possible.

Basically there is one trust tell that is ok and that everyone should use in mafia games and it's "I never break the rules of the game to win".

[Ramcius]

I think scum overbuses and over distances, there are much better ways to play imo.

Hey, don't tell them, it makes our life harder, when we're town

[Flavor Leaf]

I went like a year establishing a no bus meta to the point everyone knew I absolutely didn’t bus under any circumstances.

I bussed a lot this year, and won 8 scum games.

I still don’t like bussing, but if you establish a no bus meta you get pigeonhole’d for it until you start breaking it, but you really only get to break it once.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I only read the op and not the whole thread but...

If people believe you and you decide to bus and it wins you the game that's on them.

If you plan to carry this strategy of multiple games it will hurt you because it will be easy for people to find your scum partners after your death.

[Zachrulez]

If I were to claim that I Never Bus, would I breaking any rules? To me, it seems borderline trust tell. So maybe it could help to take a closer look?

What would be the pros and cons of a Never Bus meta?

I don't really like the way this question is worded because it seems to implicate the idea of having a meta where you never bus and claiming that you never bus as being basically the same thing when they're not.

You can have an established meta where you never bus as scum without ever claiming that you never bus.

You can say you've never bussed before as scum truthfully without trying to establish some kind of trust statement that you never will in the future or that you wouldn't do it now in this current game if you thought it would help you win.

Really the trust tell issue comes from trying to make an absolute statement about your meta (I never have bussed and I never will) where you use your meta history to try to back up the statement as 100% truth.

[Zenith]

If I were to claim that I Never Bus, would I breaking any rules? To me, it seems borderline trust tell. So maybe it could help to take a closer look?

What would be the pros and cons of a Never Bus meta?

I don't really like the way this question is worded because it seems to implicate the idea of having a meta where you never bus and claiming that you never bus as being basically the same thing when they're not.

You can have an established meta where you never bus as scum without ever claiming that you never bus.

You can say you've never bussed before as scum truthfully without trying to establish some kind of trust statement that you never will in the future or that you wouldn't do it now in this current game if you thought it would help you win.

Really the trust tell issue comes from trying to make an absolute statement about your meta (I never have bussed and I never will) where you use your meta history to try to back up the statement as 100% truth.

Well if you want to know more specific.. Since it seems stronger occurrences of this/similar situation haven't been punished. A third party called out someone as being on record for having never bussed yet, this was immediately followed by the someone affirming the third party's statement as correct. When asked about it, they defended the position by claiming bussing to be suboptimal, but they never outright made the claim that they will never ever bus under any circumstance.

Since I saw this happen, and see it as perhaps a grey area, it made me wonder where the lines are. If this can be abused or is punishable, how useful or harmful such a stance can be as scum/town, etc. It's not necessarily something I plan to do, just something in curious about.

[RadiantCowbells]

I really don't think there should be a line

As soon as you add validity to dumb claims like that it gives them power that they ought not to have.

I have seen dozens of players claim never bus Mama hen whatever you want to call it and all of them eventually ended up bussing.

Red text of truth isn't a problem if you know people are going to use it to lie