The Never Bus Claim

[Zenith]

If I were to claim that I Never Bus, would I breaking any rules? To me, it seems borderline trust tell. So maybe it could help to take a closer look?

What would be the pros and cons of a Never Bus meta?

[Ramcius]

As I see it, you can claim it all you want, people are already doing that in games, but don't turn it into trust tell. Claiming something is ok, asking people to believe your claim, because of your actions in past games is borderline trust tell

[Zenith]

What the difference in having a meta for never bussing, and claiming, "I never bus" vs "I never bus, believe me."
Isn't the believe me part kind of implied just by making the claim? Also having the meta to back the claim?

[Zenith]

I've seen more than one idea about what a trust tell is. Is there some strict definition somewhere of what a trust tell is, with like requirements and such to be considered a trust tell, for the purpose of identifying if a specific play is allowed or not? Like specifically with the I Never Bus meta?

[Something_Smart]

From the wiki:

A trust tell fits both of the following criteria:

The player insists that they only do this behavior as a certain alignment, and never as any other alignment.
The player, over the course of multiple games, only does this behavior as a certain alignment, and never as any other alignment.

Claiming to never bus is tricky, because that's not an action you can intentionally choose to take as town.

However, I think that it would be considered a trust tell, where the behavior is "pushing scum"-- assuming that the player has pushed scum as town in the past. It doesn't matter that the player doesn't always push scum as town, or that they don't know they're pushing scum while they're doing it; what matters is that they intentionally take steps to assure that they ONLY push scum as town, and they claim that.

[popsofctown]

"Would you bus for the first time in your career if you thought it would win you the game?"
"No, because then I'd lose the ability to tell people I never bus"
That's when it's a trust tell.

[Ramcius]

What the difference in having a meta for never bussing, and claiming, "I never bus" vs "I never bus, believe me."
Isn't the believe me part kind of implied just by making the claim? Also having the meta to back the claim?

Trust tell is something you can prove, using your past games and implying you will keep your word in future games is that kind of proof. Asking people to believe your word on blind faith or such isn't trust tell. You don't make any promises, so it's persons choice to believe your word here and now opposed to them believing in your promise, which is trust tell.

[Plum]

"Would you bus for the first time in your career if you thought it would win you the game?"
"No, because then I'd lose the ability to tell people I never bus"
That's when it's a trust tell.

This is the correct answer.

[Zenith]

"Would you bus for the first time in your career if you thought it would win you the game?"
"No, because then I'd lose the ability to tell people I never bus"
That's when it's a trust tell.

This is the correct answer.

So without that convo, it would be allowed?

[Something_Smart]

More or less. The important part about what pops said is that it concerns the future-- "I've never bussed" is fine, but the instant that you imply anything about future games (that includes the present-tense "I never bus"), you're in trust tell zone.

[popsofctown]

"Would you bus for the first time in your career if you thought it would win you the game?"
"No, because then I'd lose the ability to tell people I never bus"
That's when it's a trust tell.

This is the correct answer.

So without that convo, it would be allowed?

If the position you're taking is consistent with that convo, we someone to make that convo with you, then it's a problem, whether or not that exact convo actually happens.
"I never bus" implies a trust tell since it isn't an in-meta way to play scum, so an explanation of why you have unusual beliefs on mafia theory would be expected. "Don't worry, that witness won't make it to the court date, the judge agreed the witness's testimony isn't admissible evidence for legal reasons," is swell, "Don't worry, that witness won't make it to the court date" is ominous in what's unspoken.

[RadiantCowbells]

Every single person historically who has claimed to never bus, and that accounts for a lot of people, has ended up bussing under special circumstances..

[RadiantCowbells]

Also usually the argument isn't "I never bus so I can claim a trust tell." It's I never bus because I'm too Mama hen / just don't like bussing people / like the teamwork aspect of scum play. Which isn't really trust telling, if you don't do something as scum for a reason that's not establishing a trust tell.

Actually I got the closest to that with saying that I stopped bussing because I was sick of getting scumread after I correctly lynched scum. But I went back on it and always intended on going back on it at some point. Hmm.

[Something_Smart]

Also usually the argument isn't "I never bus so I can claim a trust tell." It's I never bus because I'm too Mama hen / just don't like bussing people / like the teamwork aspect of scum play. Which isn't really trust telling, if you don't do something as scum for a reason that's not establishing a trust tell.

Idk I still think it's sketchy to say "I pushed scum and I never bus, so you should have me as locktown." Even the people who have reasons for not bussing need to admit that it's a general principle that can be broken.

[popsofctown]

I "like"/"don't like" kind of already implies you're not dealing in absolutes anymore.
If you state nothing but the conclusion and want people to fill in some blanks that's where I'd be worried.

[Ramcius]

To me it looks just like any bs you can tell as some sort of self meta "I don't do x as scum, so you should TR me now for doing that in this game"

[RadiantCowbells]

Idk I still think it's sketchy to say "I pushed scum and I never bus, so you should have me as locktown." Even the people who have reasons for not bussing need to admit that it's a general principle that can be broken.

But if it's not true then why though like

I don't see a problem with someone falsely claiming themselves conftown lol

[RadiantCowbells]

Like how is that different from saying "I'm confirmed town due to my iso" or whatever

[Nancy Drew 39]

As I see it, you can claim it all you want, people are already doing that in games, but don't turn it into trust tell. Claiming something is ok, asking people to believe your claim, because of your actions in past games is borderline trust tell

"Would you bus for the first time in your career if you thought it would win you the game?"
"No, because then I'd lose the ability to tell people I never bus"
That's when it's a trust tell.

That would more accurately fall under the category of deliberate gamethrowing than trust tells and in this case, it’s the intentional gamethrowing that ought to be actionable.

[popsofctown]

As I see it, you can claim it all you want, people are already doing that in games, but don't turn it into trust tell. Claiming something is ok, asking people to believe your claim, because of your actions in past games is borderline trust tell

"Would you bus for the first time in your career if you thought it would win you the game?"
"No, because then I'd lose the ability to tell people I never bus"
That's when it's a trust tell.

That would more accurately fall under the category of deliberate gamethrowing than trust tells and in this case, it’s the intentional gamethrowing that ought to be actionable.

All trust tells require intentional gamethrowing to function. If you only say "I'm a unicorn" as town and never ever post it as scum, the trust value doesn't gain value until you start throwing some games by not posting "I'm a unicorn" as scum when it would win you those games.
There's overlap, yes.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm a unicorn.

[Espeonage]

I like to try and lynch people who say stuff like this bc if its not a trust tell then they're using it to artificially gain credibility which is scummy. I don't want to be the idiot that gets burned when someone does it for the first time.

[RadiantCowbells]

everyone who ever said they don't bus ended up bussing.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm a unicorn.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[Nancy Drew 39]

everyone who ever said they don't bus ended up bussing.

I train.