The Root of Toxicity in Mafia Games

[Dannflor]

The most common paths to scum wins that I see in games are one where a significant faction of town scumread each scum but at least one scum had at least a few townies who hard townread them and defend them, and in the end town lynches people no one really thinks is going to flip scum as a compromise because the people hard defending wear out the people with correct scumreads until they give up on that read.

See: Shoshin, Volpe, but this is actually more common in games without me because I have no issues brute forcing a scum lynch over the objections of whichever townie hard defends them

this is how alisae v pine was won

[Nancy Drew 39]

When most have bad reads, being better than most isn't much, tbh

I will give you a piece of advice - do not try read everyone, it's okay to have null reads. If you not sure about your read, just say it, not force your read. Personally I feel like I make most mistakes, when I try force reads as opposed to reads that comes naturally to me

+1

I think that’s great advice, thanks. Yeah, sometimes I get asked to make a readslists when I either don’t have or have very few reads. So, I absolutely hate to be asked that. Asking me for reads, fine but I only like to make readslists when I want to and if I do what I’m asked when I’m not ready to make one, it usually gets shit on, so I’ve actually found it’s better to outright refuse than make a readslist you don’t feel at all confident on.

I think being honest about that is best because people can usually read sincerity.

Problem with readlists is that someone taught people that scum have hard time faking reads, ofc I love this dynamic as a scum, cause I just need throw out some readlist that is similar to most townies readlists and I can sit comfy for a while

In an aborted scumgame of mine, I was ask for one and immediately got tr because of it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I’m glad I can finally talk about this now. I just finished a game where I was death tunnelled in such a way, it felt almost like gaslighting. Shockingly enough, it came from town so it only RESEMBLED it but it seriously messed with my head to the point, I wanted to replace out, in order to not have to interact with this person and had I not been in a hydra, I probably would have. Because I experienced it as so toxic att, it was seriously messing with my head, to the point that it even affected me outside of the game. I was temporarily doubting and questioning myself about absolutely everything, I was seriously that confused as a direct result of it.

[popsofctown]

Getting scumread by town as town isn't toxicity

[Enter]

Getting scumread by town as town isn't toxicity

+1

[OkaPoka]

getting scumread by town as town is why mafia is kinda fun

[Nancy Drew 39]

Getting scumread by town as town isn't toxicity

Getting scumread by town as town isn't toxicity

+1

That isn’t what I said at all. I said, It felt exactly like gaslighting, the way it happened. And I mean, EXACTLY.

[Nancy Drew 39]

getting scumread by town as town is why mafia is kinda fun

It’s not fun, when the person doing it is acting like scum trying to gaslight you.

[Ankamius]

mafia is designed around not being entirely sure who is on your side and trying to reach a common goal despite that

and any list of however many people will have vastly different personalities, some of which will naturally clash over time

yeah that's a recipe for toxicity if I've ever seen one!

[Nancy Drew 39]

mafia is designed around not being entirely sure who is on your side and trying to reach a common goal despite that

and any list of however many people will have vastly different personalities, some of which will naturally clash over time

yeah that's a recipe for toxicity if I've ever seen one!

I’ve never played League which was mentioned but I also think experience contributes to less toxic play. I have heard it from multiple people that they used to handle being wrongly sr, really really badly and they felt so bad about their reactions, that they consciously went about changing them and succeeded.

[Ankamius]

People get more toxic over time in league

[Uncrowned]

I haven't read this entire thread but I just thought I'd toss in my two cents.

I've seen a bit of toxicity in regards to play styles and mistakes / disagreements on the "right" or "good" way to play (at least that's what I'm seeing) here, and I think a lot of it comes down to passive aggressive sort of comments, and sometimes a slight feeling of "I'm better than you" sorta stuff. Some of this might just be down to playing text-based, where you can't read peoples emotions or tones as they're speaking, but yeah.

I think a lot of the toxicity not only in Mafia, but in gaming and even life in general, would be removed/avoided by giving genuine, constructive criticism and attempts to help each other get better. Everyone's gonna have that big moment where they do something amazing, and then another where they absolutely butcher it and fail miserably. I doubt anyone is exempt from this. The thing also is that, even when good advice is given, some people just aren't gonna take that. I think in most cases it's a matter of either agreeing to disagree or just trying to lift each other up. It's all a game at the end of the day. Some of the fun is removed for me personally when I see toxicity in games.

[Bitmap]

Add RC to every mafia game.

/thread

[Nancy Drew 39]

People get more toxic over time in league

Why do you think that is?

[Ankamius]

because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game

it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are

plus the dunning-kruger effect

[Ramcius]

because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game

it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are

plus the dunning-kruger effect

That last sentence is rude, but I like it

[OkaPoka]

If there was ranked mafia this game would be very toxic too

[Nancy Drew 39]

because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game

it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are

plus the dunning-kruger effect

That last sentence is rude, but I like it

As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.

[Ramcius]

because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game

it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are

plus the dunning-kruger effect

That last sentence is rude, but I like it

As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.

I'm well aware what Dunning-Kruger effect is

[Nancy Drew 39]

because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game

it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are

plus the dunning-kruger effect

That last sentence is rude, but I like it

As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.

I'm well aware what Dunning-Kruger effect is

Your point?

[Ramcius]

because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game

it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are

plus the dunning-kruger effect

That last sentence is rude, but I like it

As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.

I'm well aware what Dunning-Kruger effect is

Your point?

Well then, Dunning-Kruger effect is that stupid people value themselves way higher than they should and they value others way lower than they deserve, so saying that toxicity comes from Dunning-Kruger efect is same as saying that toxicity comes from people's stupidity. While calling other people stupid is rude, I completely agree with this idea

[Nancy Drew 39]

There were two parts to that, the second was that smart people undervalue their own capabilities and over value others but you’re right, pretty sure Ank meant the former.

I also think it’s fair to say that you need a bit of an ego to play mafia in general and apparently an even bigger one, to play league.

[Ramcius]

There were two parts to that, the second was that smart people undervalue their own capabilities and over value others but you’re right, pretty sure Ank meant the former.

I also think it’s fair to say that you need a bit of an ego to play mafia in general and apparently an even bigger one, to play league.

People don't get toxic, when they undervalue themselves, so that part isn't really relevant. Ego is integral part of Dunning-Kruger effect - it's natural to have bigger ego, when you think really good about yourself and really bad about others, ofc it goes backwards too, your ego is lower, if you undervalue yourself

[Nancy Drew 39]

There were two parts to that, the second was that smart people undervalue their own capabilities and over value others but you’re right, pretty sure Ank meant the former.

I also think it’s fair to say that you need a bit of an ego to play mafia in general and apparently an even bigger one, to play league.

People don't get toxic, when they undervalue themselves, so that part isn't really relevant. Ego is integral part of Dunning-Kruger effect - it's natural to have bigger ego, when you think really good about yourself and really bad about others, ofc it goes backwards too, your ego is lower, if you undervalue yourself

I agree there is no connection between having a lower ego and toxicity but I think that the obvious conclusion of the D-K effect would seem to be that one’s ego has a direct effect on accurate assessments. If you have a big ego, you are more likely to trust bad reads than if you have a low one. If you have a lower ego, you would be more likely to mistrust good reads but the real issue is whether of not one’s opinion of one’s play/reads etc. is based on actual evidence or just wishful thinking. If player X has over an 80% accuracy rate of nailing scum for example, than a “big ego” would then be justified but otoh, if you lack complete trust in your play/reads, being town in any game would be painful. Iow, how does one even begin to play mafia without some sort of larger ego?

[Ramcius]

There were two parts to that, the second was that smart people undervalue their own capabilities and over value others but you’re right, pretty sure Ank meant the former.

I also think it’s fair to say that you need a bit of an ego to play mafia in general and apparently an even bigger one, to play league.

People don't get toxic, when they undervalue themselves, so that part isn't really relevant. Ego is integral part of Dunning-Kruger effect - it's natural to have bigger ego, when you think really good about yourself and really bad about others, ofc it goes backwards too, your ego is lower, if you undervalue yourself

I agree there is no connection between having a lower ego and toxicity but I think that the obvious conclusion of the D-K effect would seem to be that one’s ego has a direct effect on accurate assessments. If you have a big ego, you are more likely to trust bad reads than if you have a low one. If you have a lower ego, you would be more likely to mistrust good reads but the real issue is whether of not one’s opinion of one’s play/reads etc. is based on actual evidence or just wishful thinking. If player X has over an 80% accuracy rate of nailing scum for example, than a “big ego” would then be justified but otoh, if you lack complete trust in your play/reads, being town in any game would be painful. Iow, how does one even begin to play mafia without some sort of larger ego?

Well, first thing that comes in mind, when you think about mafia isn't convincing people, but finding scum. Finding scum doesn't require huge ego

As for complete trust in their reads - who even has that? I admit that I often feign my confidence in my scumreads, because if people will feel my doubts, there's no way they'll listen me. Not that they listen anyway...