The Guide to Designing Setups

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
Alisae
Alisae
lolbalance
User avatar
User avatar
Alisae
lolbalance
lolbalance
Posts: 47090
Joined: October 31, 2016
Location: Cali~ (PST)

The Guide to Designing Setups

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:59 am

Post by Alisae »

         
Introduction

I'm not sure there are many guides out there when it comes to building a setup.
There are plenty of guides of how to moderate your game.

What I am about to describe is what I would like to introduce as a way to determine the skill level of a moderator:
Level 1 is Plot's guide for the feral crane hawks. Before we had Plot's Guide, the Open Queue was the wild west let me tell ya some of the first time mods there? I could tell horror stories about.
Level 2 is Varsoon's guide to modding, and this is the area around where most people are at.
Level 3 is where you will have mastered 1 of the 3 skills:
- Appearance: reading my posts about tables, themes, and menus. northsidegal is someone who has stood out from the crowd for how her games look. You can also do that yourself, all of the resources are there, you just have to want to put the time into it.
- Operation: You are able to run a
simple
and
complex
games smoothly without errors. This does not include
nightmare
level games. I mentioned Plot's name earlier, if you are trying to improve in the operation of your game, then learn from him and apply yourself.
- Design: The Actual game itself.
Level 4 is where you have mastered 2 of the 3 skills above
Level 5 is where you have mastered all of those skills.

There are guides on basic and advance moderating principals
There are guides on how to make your game look pretty
There are guides on how to operate your game and this is something you can practice and get better at
However, not one tells you "this is how you design your game"
Instead, they all tell you about game design concepts.

This guide will tell you how to design a game.

         
The Golden Formula

I have told so many moderators this and some people refuse to listen.
I don't really seem to get why?
But there is a formula for how many players your game should contain.
4(scum) + 1 = total players
This is true for all types of games and is pretty standard.
If you chose to not follow this formula, you will run into issues.


         
Difficulty

First, you have to ask yourself, what kind of game do you plan on designing. And this isn't about closed or open setups, but rather how complicated do you want it to be.
I mentioned this above, but there are 3 difficulties.
This is a concept talked a bit about by Natirasha In this wiki article and the section labeled as "The Sliding Scale". The
nightmare
difficulty does not exist on this scale, it is what you would say if you tried to connect the simple with the complex.
- Simple: If you fuck up the execution of this setup then you fucked up big time. These setups are where you are most likely to see individuals without active abilities. There aren't a lot of moving parts, and the setup is so easy to run here that they practically run themselves. Most setups are around this level and that is perfectly okay, most people will enjoy simple games! If you need an example one something I would call "simple" here you go. Jingle's Vengeful Ghosts would also fit here. You can easily track all actions in a Mod PT.
- Complex: Its a bit easier to mess this up because there are just a bit more moving parts to keep track of. Role Madness games can sometimes go here if there is a lot of power. Most Large Themes will be around this level of difficulty. First one that comes to mind here is Maria's Anime Binge or the game I modded for Team Mafia 2018, Magical Stories. These games come across with something you can fuck up pretty easily. If Maria HAD bumped up the complexity of the roles, things could get messy. Had I made my TM2018 game a mechanic heavy game, with all of the complex roles I might have fucked something up, and I kept track of all of the role interactions in a spreadsheet here. You can track these types of games in a Mod PT but I would suggest using a spreadsheet.
- Nightmare: This is what happens when you did too much and you connected the simple (let's say for example in Beneath the Mask, the concept "You can perform actions in the real world and in the metaverse") with the complex (in Beneath the Mask, the complex would be is that your role does way too much, too much so that the mod can't keep track of it all). No sane man should be designing games here. Your game simply has too many parts in both mechanics and roles, and its getting to the point where it could potentially blow up on you. I have several examples of this in my modding history. Beneath The Mask had dozens of errors and is why I started testing a spreadsheet system to keep track of actions. The design of this game is so beautiful that it deserves to be in a museum, because trying to run this game would basically be impossible. I got my reputation and my title "lolbalance" from modding games like Once Upon a Time and House in the Woods where the perspective of balance was thrown out of the window. These games would be very difficult to run without a spreadsheet and would probably be fucked up by most people due to multiple moving parts. It would be pretty easy to mess something up within all of the moving parts here. I had to scrap this game and this game because they would just be impossible to humanly run. If your game is a nightmare level game, then you are putting too much on your plate.

In regards to The Sliding Scale itself, it hasn't changed and Natirasha talks all about it.

         
Designing the Game

This is a hot take, but as a game designer, you do not need to be good at balancing. Its simply not your job, your job is to make the game. It is the reviewers job to make sure the game is balanced. This is a belief I strongly believe in and thats why when I describe my games as lolbalance, it means "hey, this game is probably not going to be balanced at all actually but its going to be super fun" and thats because balance isn't actually important if you say your game won't be balanced. What is important is that your game is fun. If your game isn't fun, then you wasted your time. Now, this isn't to say making your game inbalanced is ok. If you are trying to advertise a balanced game but you still left in that super op role that can't ever be killed or blocked and shoots all of the mafia in 1 night in your game, then people are going to get mad.
My point is this: Worry about balance once you are done. Focus on making your game first.

Now that you understand that your game has to be fun, you need something to design around.
Perhap its a mechanic? In Beneath the Mask, I started out with the mechanic of "ok so what this role can travel between the real world and the metaverse and have different actions in those worlds" or it could be something as simple as "In Vengeful Ghosts, if you die, you have things you can do in the dead thread." In which case, you already have something to build your game around, go build your game around it.

However if you don't have any mechanics and you are relying on mostly role interactions, how do you design your game?

Well, if you don't want to design a setup that stands out that much, you can take a setup thats already balanced and modify it a bit.
In Micc's Pokemon Sapphire game, he started with the setup of masons vs mafia and expanded on it a tiny bit.
In my Furret's Bizarre Adventure, I started with the model of "tracker + doctor = balanced" and then adjusted things from there. To make the heart of the setup different, I made the tracker an IC Tracker that couldn't die right away, and changed the Doctor to a Jailkeeper. To balance this out, I gave scum some 1-shot powers that unlocked when one of them died, also they could kill the IC Tracker once one of them died. I also wanted to play around with scum neighbors so I created a bunch of hoods and had the Jailkeeper interact with the Private Topics itself. Now, this setup wasn't perfected and there was 1 role that I added that, from a balance perspective, I probably shouldn't have added? Its not perfectly balanced, but I feel like it demonstrates the method pretty well.

However if you want a setup that is dynamic and stands out from a pure design perspective, you're better off designing your setup off of a 1-3 roles.
In a normal jjh modded, he designed his game around the PT cop. First, introduce roles that mess with the role's results, a traitor for mafia, masons and a neighborizer for town. Then have those PTs have their daytalk enabled, and thats the core of your setup. For games that follow Normal Guidelines, you only need 1 core, but however in role madness games, you might need a 2nd core or some filler roles that don't add much to the setup. Every role in your core should have some kind of purpose within the setup itself.

For lolbalance games like Once Upon a Time and House in the Woods, its important to establish that these games were Anything uPicks.
So I had to work with characters and things or whatever on the fly.
For these games, I desgined the role around the flavor, trying to realize the characters as much as I could through a mafia context.
Because in these games, these games were advertised around fun and lolbalance, I didn't have to worry about creating the actual core of the setup. I just vomitted whatever ideas came from my head into the role.
However, uPicks are challenging because not only do you have to realize the characters as much as possible through a mafia context, but also you have to create an actual dynamic setup.

What is the take away?
Design your game around something
. It can be a setup, a singular role, the theme, or even just a scumteam you made for funsies. As long as the game is designed around something.

         
In conclusion, why do I want a dynamic setup?

Your setup is important. Your setup is the actual game you have to present to people and make them play.
desiging your game around something is important because its what gives your game a personality, and its how you stand out from the crowd as a moderator.
Simply put, you make your game interesting by designing it around something.
The setups that are the best are the ones that were designed around something.
GTKAS
| here.
User avatar
the worst
the worst
Snuggly Duckling
User avatar
User avatar
the worst
Snuggly Duckling
Snuggly Duckling
Posts: 36326
Joined: November 7, 2015
Location: pond

Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:07 pm

Post by the worst »

as a level 0.7 premoderator i like this a lot.
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
--
intermittent v/la until late march
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:50 pm

Post by Jingle »

FUCK YOU ALISAE I'M GOING TO CONTINUE DESIGNING GAMES THAT BREAK ALL OF YOUR RULES AND ARE FUN IN SPITE OF IT!

ego
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #3 (ISO) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:09 pm

Post by Jingle »

I think the biggest takeaway here is that most of the time, you should start designing with a clear goal. Why do you want to build this game? What single thing is most important to you?

I think the biggest thing that needs to be added, honestly, is also the thing that most new mods (and some veterans) forget. You're not building a game for you. You're building a game for your players. The question isn't "Would I like to be a Serial Killer who only has a night kill if the day ends with a lynch on town and is seen targeting every dead player by trackers?" (Yes. I would.) The question is "Would [Average Player] like to play a game where every post has to have a decreasing number of words." (No, they don't.)

Similarly, if you're building a game where there's a game ending Jester, invite people like Nancy and rooroo who love Jester games. If there's a cult, Korina is your dog. If it's multiball, tell Ali she probably doesn't want to touch that shit with a ten foot pole because she will straight up not have fun. Get to know the people and what they like, and you'll find your players will trust you when you say a game is good.

And if you want to design a Nightmare style game, please dear god for the love of all that is sane, have someone who has successfully run one of those games WELL look at your setup. It will take a lot of time. It will take a lot of effort. It will save you from a lot of pissed off players complaining about how your shit setup should never have been run for years to come.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10058
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #4 (ISO) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:56 pm

Post by Psyche »

In post 0, Alisae wrote:I have told so many moderators this and some people refuse to listen.
I don't really seem to get why?
well do you usually only include vague explanations why that only ambiguously allude to the risks when you do this?
youtube playlist extracter | donbot | game scraper | vca | setupsim | strategist | llm
User avatar
chamber
chamber
Cases are scummy
User avatar
User avatar
chamber
Cases are scummy
Cases are scummy
Posts: 10703
Joined: November 20, 2005

Post Post #5 (ISO) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:21 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 0, Alisae wrote:         The Golden Formula
I have told so many moderators this and some people refuse to listen.
I don't really seem to get why?
But there is a formula for how many players your game should contain.
4(scum) + 1 = total players
This is true for all types of games and is pretty standard.
If you chose to not follow this formula, you will run into issues.
The relationship between scum and town doesn't scale linearly. At 4:1 you basically don't need any town power, by 7:2 you need a comfortable amount of town power and at 10:3 town needs a lot of power. I don't think I'd ever run a 13:4 game, it would be better at ~16:4.
Taking a break from the site.
User avatar
Alisae
Alisae
lolbalance
User avatar
User avatar
Alisae
lolbalance
lolbalance
Posts: 47090
Joined: October 31, 2016
Location: Cali~ (PST)

Post Post #6 (ISO) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:24 pm

Post by Alisae »

In post 5, chamber wrote:I don't think I'd ever run a 13:4 game, it would be better at ~16:4.
I see 13:4 games a lot so I'm interested as to why
GTKAS
| here.
User avatar
chamber
chamber
Cases are scummy
User avatar
User avatar
chamber
Cases are scummy
Cases are scummy
Posts: 10703
Joined: November 20, 2005

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:25 pm

Post by chamber »

You would need so much town power for it to be balanced that night actions would dominate the game play.
Taking a break from the site.
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
User avatar
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Posts: 70855
Joined: February 24, 2013
Pronoun: He/him
Contact:

Post Post #8 (ISO) » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:30 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I ran a 9:4 game where scum got absolutely swept with the only major PR usage being the governor D1
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
User avatar
chamber
chamber
Cases are scummy
User avatar
User avatar
chamber
Cases are scummy
Cases are scummy
Posts: 10703
Joined: November 20, 2005

Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:20 am

Post by chamber »

I was in an 8:4 game once where no town died. Doesn't mean you should expect that result over any meaningful sample size.
Taking a break from the site.
User avatar
FakeGod
FakeGod
Seven-Colored Puppeteer
User avatar
User avatar
FakeGod
Seven-Colored Puppeteer
Seven-Colored Puppeteer
Posts: 9610
Joined: March 17, 2010
Location: Bad Player Jail
Contact:

Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:34 am

Post by FakeGod »

I love reading articles like these; it brings me great joy

I believe 2:15 mountainous is balanced enough but slightly scumsided; I mostly run 3:14 setups

4:13 would require immense amount of town power
My favorite site mod is Zor Tester.
I have Brandi's autograph! I bet you're jealous.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:03 pm

Post by Jingle »

I think it's important that we all recognize that FG is putting 14 mafia into his 17 player games.

My breakpoints are usually

7:2
10:3
15:4
18:5

for a design starting point and then you adjust from there based on respective powers in the teams. I'm willing to admit that is at least partially because those are the sizes I'm most used to working with though.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
rb
rb
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
rb
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12029
Joined: June 13, 2016
Location: sp00ky

Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:12 pm

Post by rb »

i dont think 10:3 needs a lot of town power

unless you consider 1cop with a peek considerable town power
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:23 pm

Post by Jingle »

Depends on your baseline. If you're measuring from Mountainous, cop IS a lot of power.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
FakeGod
FakeGod
Seven-Colored Puppeteer
User avatar
User avatar
FakeGod
Seven-Colored Puppeteer
Seven-Colored Puppeteer
Posts: 9610
Joined: March 17, 2010
Location: Bad Player Jail
Contact:

Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:54 pm

Post by FakeGod »

Cop is intense
My favorite site mod is Zor Tester.
I have Brandi's autograph! I bet you're jealous.
User avatar
Ramcius
Ramcius
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Ramcius
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 4126
Joined: November 22, 2016

Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:11 am

Post by Ramcius »

"Cop is fair and balanced role" - says 9 out of 10 town players
Not Known 15
Not Known 15
Mafia Scum
Not Known 15
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3744
Joined: September 15, 2017

Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:54 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 16, Ramcius wrote:"Cop is fair and balanced role" - says 9 out of 10 town players
No role is balanced on its own. A setup can be balanced, or not. A setup can be unfair, or fair. A role can be inherently unfair, Cop is not unfair alone. A very unbalanced setup is unfair.
4(scum) + 1 = total players

This is true for all types of games and is pretty standard.
If you chose to not follow this formula, you will run into issues.
I say that these are usable numbers without having to make too many PR`s or none at all:
Number of playersToo Much Power(formula only)High PowerMid PowerLow Power
7--2 scum-
9--
2 scum
-
11--2 scum*2 scum*
13-
3 scum
-2 scum
15-3 scum--
17
4 scum
3 scum*3 scum*-
19--3 scum-
21
5 scum
4 scum3 scum-
23-4 scum3 scum*3 scum*
25
6 scum
4 scum-3 scum


The setups marked * are in between these two categories.
I bolded the ideal setups from the view of the formula...
User avatar
the worst
the worst
Snuggly Duckling
User avatar
User avatar
the worst
Snuggly Duckling
Snuggly Duckling
Posts: 36326
Joined: November 7, 2015
Location: pond

Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:28 pm

Post by the worst »

In post 16, Ramcius wrote:"Cop is fair and balanced role" - says 9 out of 10 town players
looking for 10% of players to be best friends with
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
--
intermittent v/la until late march
User avatar
popsofctown
popsofctown
She
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
popsofctown
She
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12356
Joined: September 23, 2008
Pronoun: She

Post Post #19 (ISO) » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:48 pm

Post by popsofctown »

My heart
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
User avatar
AaronFrost
AaronFrost
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
AaronFrost
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3379
Joined: July 19, 2019
Location: EST

Post Post #20 (ISO) » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:48 am

Post by AaronFrost »

In post 1, the worst wrote:as a level 0.7 premoderator i like this a lot.
I think I'm a level 0.1 pre-pre moderator get on my level
User avatar
rb
rb
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
rb
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12029
Joined: June 13, 2016
Location: sp00ky

Post Post #21 (ISO) » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:46 am

Post by rb »

i once forgot i was modding a game and it never started

so i think i know what i'm talking about :cool:
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #22 (ISO) » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:09 am

Post by Jingle »

I’m so good at moderation I fell off the scale am in the negatives.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
ArcAngel9
ArcAngel9
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
ArcAngel9
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8517
Joined: December 11, 2012
Location: India

Post Post #23 (ISO) » Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:26 pm

Post by ArcAngel9 »

Any thoughts on 9(Town):2(Mafai 1):2(Mafia 2) based setups? Town of course will receive a lot of power!
I
n
a
t
i
m
e
o
f
a
n
c
i
e
n
t
g
o
d
s
,
w
a
r
l
o
r
d
s
a
n
d
k
i
n
g
s
,
a
l
a
n
d
i
n
t
u
r
m
o
i
l
c
r
i
e
d
o
u
t
f
o
r
a
h
e
r
o
.
S
h
e
w
a
s
X
e
n
a
,
a
m
i
g
h
t
y
p
r
i
n
c
e
s
s
f
o
r
g
e
d
i
n
t
h
e
h
e
a
t
o
f
b
a
t
t
l
e
.
T
h
e
p
o
w
e
r
,
t
h
e
p
a
s
s
i
o
n
,
t
h
e
d
a
n
g
e
r
.
H
e
r
c
o
u
r
a
g
e
w
i
l
l
c
h
a
n
g
e
t
h
e
w
o
r
l
d
-
Xena Warrior Princess, Coming Soon!!
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 69101
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: She/It
Location: Hell on Earth (aka Texas)

Post Post #24 (ISO) » Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:11 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

ego
<Embrace The Void>


My pronouns are she and it, please respect that. I don't mind the occasional slip.
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”