weird seven demensional crumbing strategies

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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:02 pm

Post by northsidegal »

I think there are a few important distinctions, most having to do with how cryptography is "provable" while crumbing isn't. I would consider it similar to the difference between using dice tags and saying that you flipped a coin in real life.

Assuming that there also exists a rule regarding no hidden text, there isn't really a way to "hide" an encrypted string of your role, much less to repeat it multiple times with nobody noticing. With Adel's strategy, it's likely that town forces everyone to post it in their first or one of their first posts, likely with nothing else (similar to what happens in games with lie detectors, where people get forced to make a plain single-post statement like "I am aligned with the Town"). Already we can see that, even if you have some crazy crumbing strategy strung out over 30 posts, there's nothing to say that you didn't do the same thing for twelve other roles somewhere else and perhaps with some other method in your posts. In that regard, there's no guarantee that that is the singular role that you were intending to hide. In comparison, encrypting your role and posting it as your first post
does
commit to a single role, given that you can't decrypt something to multiple roles (presumably).

Furthermore, crumbing strategies such as pop-culture media references, typos, random capital letters and deliberate word choice can (in some cases) plausibly have been thought of after the fact. If I'm the kind of person who normally pops into the thread and might talk a little about some medical drama I was watching or something similar, my later trying to claim that this is a Doctor crumb is made weaker by the fact that I might have done that even if I wasn't intending to claim doctor. There's an element of doubt. You might counter this by saying that some references could be so clear cut or otherwise out of character as to
only
make sense as a crumb. I would agree that this is probably true, but would counter by saying that, through cryptography this would
always
be the case -- regardless of any reputation effects, regardless of my creativity or subtlety, there should never be any doubt that my encrypted text decrypts to what I intended, as can be the case with references.

Even further, crumbing strategies have some element of counterplay, which I don't believe is the case for encryption. If I made the medical drama crumb that I mentioned earlier, it might not be too much of a stretch for scum to see that and think that I'm crumbing and kill me. Even if I'm the kind of person who stretches a crumb out over multiple posts, it's still theoretically possible to counter that as scum. You might argue that that's unreasonable, but I would say that if you become known for doing weird crumbs like that then it immediately becomes less effective, as scum can know to look out for that. Nobody might normally go over the first letter or last letter of every post, but they might if they know that that's how you like to hide things. Even if you're not
known
for doing it and/or scum don't know that you do that, it is still
theoretically possible
for someone to look through your past games, see that that's what you do, and take it into account. That's a fairly unlikely scenario (although not impossible, I would argue), but the reason I bring it up is to demonstrate a point -- counterplay is
possible
. If I encrypt my role in my very first post, there isn't really any counterplay possible in terms of figuring out what my role is. If you were to say they could try running some kind of cracking algorithm, I would say that that would be moving away from the game of mafia at all.

Any sort of counterplay to an encryption strategy like Adel's would have to come from the social side rather than the "linguistic analysis" side, I guess I'll call it. That is, trying to convince people not to do it in the first place. And, considering that, I would say that the only objections one
could
make to it would either come from attempting to play towards future win conditions (against the rules), or some kind of argument that it's not good sportsmanship. But for anyone who cares more about winning and is town, I can't personally see any reason why it wouldn't be done.

So if we have something where:
1) The only reason not to do it would be on grounds of poor sportsmanship, and
2) It would be done every game if not banned

Those already seem like fairly decent grounds for banning something, not to even mention other considerations such as moving things away from the game of mafia itself, and that most things in mafia that don't come from the moderator shouldn't be able to be provable like things can be with cryptography (correct me if I'm overlooking something else provable).

Honestly, if we're discussing strange rules that seem inconsistent or don't seem to have much justification, I would say that the common rule against provable randomness makes much less sense.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:51 am

Post by profii »

If someone starts hinting that they are a PR I will look at their past games to see how they crumb. I feel confident that if I can get a feeling for how their brain works, then it can aid me in deciding if a crumb is legit. A large majority of the time, people who crumb mix it up.
Sometimes people make references that are obvious crumbs and I just dont get them, but that's a factor of being the other side of the pond on a site dominated by US/Canada (or at least it seems that way)


I think the point about crumbing working against you or for you is really the fundamental point about it - for example in my last scum game, one of my mates was in a neighbourhood so I decided to make references to driving and commuting and then claim I was a traffic analyst which kept me alive a lot longer than I would have otherwise (I think...)

It was entirely made up based on what I knew about the game and if I didnt get myself into a mess I could have easily just not claimed.

On the flip side of that, I have literally said "Imma cop you" whilst being the town cop (I think I got protection on the first night then scum left me alone after that for a long while)



My overall point is, there is loads of things you can do with crumbing, you can make it super complex, you can make it obvious, you can fake crumb to use it later as scum, you can fake crumb as town to attract a night kill if you are VT and want to save your PRs.

In theory, the optimal thing is to make the crumb and never reference it because no one wants to lynch you but I dont think effort is a sign of towny-honest-crumbing
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:18 pm

Post by Amrun »

I don’t think I’ve ever crumbed first anything, ever. Lol
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:33 am

Post by Ankamius »

Crumbing feels like somebody wanting to tell me that they're a PR rather than showing me
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:14 pm

Post by skitter30 »

yeah

my basic pr/crumbing pov is basically to play in such a way that when i claim you will be able to understand the entire game from the pov of town!pr!me. i.e. all of my behavior and actions throughout the game thus far make sense from the pov of the pr i'm claiming to be

if i can explain my reaction to every thing that happens in the game in reference to my claim in a way that makes sense, a crumb is irrelevant
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:16 pm

Post by Alisae »

In post 22, Alisae wrote:I used to crumb when I was new and really bad
now I am not new and not really bad
I don't crumb
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:27 pm

Post by Psyche »

yes such a valuable contribution to the thread it needed to be made twice
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:30 pm

Post by Alisae »

In post 31, Psyche wrote:yes such a valuable contribution to the thread it needed to be made twice
yes, such a valuable contribution to the thread that it just needed to be posted
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:21 pm

Post by Firebringer »

In post 23, RadiantCowbells wrote:setting up crumb strategies is small brain

big brain is going back through the game and trying to figure out what you can spin as a crumb for the role that you want to claim
the second part is why I find crumbing stupid.

it actually isn't hard to spin posts as crumbs. And because crumbs are so easy to make or create out of thin air by saying a previous post was a crumb. crumbing itself is pretty pointless. Either claim or don't. Don't crumb.

Even if ur a power role. Most people wont get ur crumbs unless ur blatant about it and even then they could miss it (talking about if u die before outing results). Either claim or don't.
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his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:38 pm

Post by mastina »

I come from the school of thought of breadcrumbing so blatantly that people write it off as a joke because there's no way that I could actually be
claiming
my actual real role so openly and casually like that, right?

After all, there's no way a cop would tell everyone "hey guys, I am a cop" on day one and then do exactly what they said they would, so casually. :shifty:
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by Firebringer »

It’s not breadcrumbing if you just leave the whole meal out in the open.
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"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:00 am

Post by Adel »

For context, at the time people were getting elaborate enough with breadcrumbs that it was crypto, more so than breadcrumbing always is to start with (putting a secret message into a carrier signal being my lay definition for crypto) so I was like “oh this is a crypto game now” and found out that people didn’t like playing crypto games.

Breadcrumbing should be banned if any other crypto is banned. Or make specific exceptions for Steganography and be ok with a magic school bus looking first post from me if I ever come back

Breadcrumbing is stupid or scummy, or at least anti town for a meta advantage as scum.
In post 18, popsofctown wrote:I always crumb with some kind of obscure pop culture reference or something instead of letter patterns.
I kind of agree with bugspray that maybe the tolerance of "here's which letters are significant" crumbs isn't really unified or consistent with the rule against cryptography.
I feel like I could always find an obscure enough pop culture reference to manage the same thing, with a little more work though. In a sense explaining what I'm referencing is "decrypting". So the thing you would have to ban is "explaining your crumbs?"

The big difference between this Adel anecdote I hadn't heard of before and both Datisi and my crumbs is that Adel's method/mandate restricts one to a single claim by pointing out the one post containing it. Both his and mine would have risk of scum cracking them if I pointed out the exact post and then for that reason I have an excuse to make seven of them littered through several posts if I wanted to as scum.

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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:21 pm

Post by Cook »

Or just straight up tell people from the start

"I'm VT and there's nothing you can do to stop me!"
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:11 pm

Post by Isis »

In post 36, Adel wrote:For context, at the time people were getting elaborate enough with breadcrumbs that it was crypto, more so than breadcrumbing always is to start with (putting a secret message into a carrier signal being my lay definition for crypto) so I was like “oh this is a crypto game now” and found out that people didn’t like playing crypto games.

Breadcrumbing should be banned if any other crypto is banned. Or make specific exceptions for Steganography and be ok with a magic school bus looking first post from me if I ever come back

Breadcrumbing is stupid or scummy, or at least anti town for a meta advantage as scum.
In post 18, popsofctown wrote:I always crumb with some kind of obscure pop culture reference or something instead of letter patterns.
I kind of agree with bugspray that maybe the tolerance of "here's which letters are significant" crumbs isn't really unified or consistent with the rule against cryptography.
I feel like I could always find an obscure enough pop culture reference to manage the same thing, with a little more work though. In a sense explaining what I'm referencing is "decrypting". So the thing you would have to ban is "explaining your crumbs?"

The big difference between this Adel anecdote I hadn't heard of before and both Datisi and my crumbs is that Adel's method/mandate restricts one to a single claim by pointing out the one post containing it. Both his and mine would have risk of scum cracking them if I pointed out the exact post and then for that reason I have an excuse to make seven of them littered through several posts if I wanted to as scum.

Smalltowns and all VT opens are great people by the way.
Did you quote that to agree or criticize the viewpoint?
(I'm popsofctown, to be transparent)
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think
you are agreeing with me)
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"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:53 am

Post by Adel »

Tbh, neither. to win a different argument I lost about a decade ago.

*Shrug*
In post 38, Isis wrote:
In post 36, Adel wrote:For context, at the time people were getting elaborate enough with breadcrumbs that it was crypto, more so than breadcrumbing always is to start with (putting a secret message into a carrier signal being my lay definition for crypto) so I was like “oh this is a crypto game now” and found out that people didn’t like playing crypto games.

Breadcrumbing should be banned if any other crypto is banned. Or make specific exceptions for Steganography and be ok with a magic school bus looking first post from me if I ever come back

Breadcrumbing is stupid or scummy, or at least anti town for a meta advantage as scum.
In post 18, popsofctown wrote:I always crumb with some kind of obscure pop culture reference or something instead of letter patterns.
I kind of agree with bugspray that maybe the tolerance of "here's which letters are significant" crumbs isn't really unified or consistent with the rule against cryptography.
I feel like I could always find an obscure enough pop culture reference to manage the same thing, with a little more work though. In a sense explaining what I'm referencing is "decrypting". So the thing you would have to ban is "explaining your crumbs?"

The big difference between this Adel anecdote I hadn't heard of before and both Datisi and my crumbs is that Adel's method/mandate restricts one to a single claim by pointing out the one post containing it. Both his and mine would have risk of scum cracking them if I pointed out the exact post and then for that reason I have an excuse to make seven of them littered through several posts if I wanted to as scum.

Smalltowns and all VT opens are great people by the way.
Did you quote that to agree or criticize the viewpoint?
(I'm popsofctown, to be transparent)
(I
think
you are agreeing with me)
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:51 pm

Post by Isis »

:(
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:58 pm

Post by dsjstr »

In post 0, bugspray wrote:I've heard that some people will crumb by "having every third letter of a sentence spell their role backwards" is this true? What the heck goes on and how do people even manage to do this stuff
just pretend to be drunk posting every weekend but every spelling mistake is actually just the crumb
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:27 am

Post by Cook »

Again, just straight up roleclaim at the start of the game and play innocent child
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:44 pm

Post by Gypyx »

the best type of crumb is of course to just say your role in the middle of a sentance, no one will see it coming
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:06 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

The more complex a crumb is, the more likely you are to mess it up.

I attempted an eight- or nine-dimensional crumb in a recent game. Nobody picked up on it or even noticed, which is what I was hoping (it was more important that the crumb wasn't found too early than that people believed it late, because I had a role that desperately needed to survive to endgame). Unfortunately, I messed up the timezone calculations and posted it an hour out from when I should have posted it, so when it came time to actually reveal it, I decided it was safer to not point it out and muddy the waters (I was town, and we were winning so hard by that point that it was easier just to let the suspicion fall on me and catch the last remaining Mafia member).

In case anyone is curious, the crumb is in this post, which should (for the crumb to work) have been posted at 14:35 UTC on 26 August 2020, but I was an hour out. The crumb points very specifically to one particular role, and cannot apply to any other role (the preciseness of the timestamp was intended to make it 100% clear that the crumb was intentional and not a coincidence).

I'm not planning to do something like this again. In general, crumbing in the steganographic sense seems to be more trouble than it's worth; I think the fun there is more in the thinking up of a crumb that won't be detected until you point it out than it is in actually winning the game, and if it gets crazy/abstract/obscure enough you're likely to mess it up and/or people won't believe it when it's pointed out (and of course, you could have been scum planning a particular falseclaim since day 1; if the crumbs are sufficiently seven-dimensional you can leave several of them in different posts to have a claim handy for any occasion).

The
really
interesting part, of course, is combing up with a crumb that players will pick up on after your flip but not before, so that information isn't lost to town. That's much harder than the steganographic sort, and can't be solved by cryptography because the town and scum have an equal opportunity to figure it out, you just have to distract the town from trying.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:54 pm

Post by Sirius9121 »

In post 5, DkKoba wrote:VOTE: sirius911
this crumb is amazing

btw its a cop crumb
and im the moderator
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:34 am

Post by Cook »

Best crumb?

The "
landmine
" crumb. Start crumbing at the start of the game.

If you need to out, state your clue to your crumb.

You have credit to your claim because of the age of it.
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