On Improving In Mafia

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On Improving In Mafia

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:11 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

It's not exactly the biggest secret that I think the metagame of this site has gone downhill over the past year or two. There have been topics on this sort of subject in some sense popping up for as long as I've been around on the site, but often they focus on specific skills and understanding different parts of the game. I'm going to go a slightly different route and attempt to detail how to improve at the game in general by tackling your mindset, hopefully regardless of your playstyle or skill level.

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Why am I qualified to speak about this?


I've been playing mafia on and off for nine years, to some varying level of seriousness. I was nobody special or worth any particular mention for most of that time, only gaining any recognition around 2016, and only widespread recognition in 2018 or 2019. Considering that it's very rare for somebody to just happen across a level of improvement to warrant this type of response, there's likely other factors at play here.

I also study various other things, albeit more as a hobby than as a potential professional career. Notably, a lot of my theories about mafia have most of their grounding in other games (such as Chess and Go), psychology (predominantly criminal psychology), and mathematics. I believe this is one of the other advantages I possess that allows me to view the game in a different way than a lot of other players. However, I'm nothing special, and this isn't a set amount of steps that will make you suddenly a legend at the game overnight. There are other valid opinions out there, and true improvement is rarely fast. These are simply the guidelines I followed to shift my mindset towards attempting to improve at the game.

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1. The fundamental basis of good reads is learning how to simplify.


This is the absolute key that I believe a lot of people on a fundamental level miss about the game. Mafia, at its core, is extremely complex. Every single post made adds an extra layer of analysis in wording, tone, emotion, content, etc. Throughout a game that goes for perhaps 200 pages, why would you want to search through all of it?

Naturally analysis to this extent doesn't commonly happen regardless, but this same concept keeps carrying through. Every single player that I see have a reputation for town play on this site does this to a pretty significant extent, whether consciously or subconsciously. This is because when you boil it down to the basics, do you need to go through somebody's entire ISO when you can find one piece that is strongly more likely to come from one alignment or the other?

As for another example, one common trend I see across quite a few players is taking everything in the game into account to their read. This is entirely unnecessary and is actually far more likely to contribute to a very noncommital read when you otherwise would have had a good idea of their alignment if you simply didn't. A lot of this is because the majority of what somebody says is very likely to be something that can be attributed to both alignments. If you take everything into account with this in mind, then the most prevalent thought in your mind while doing the analysis is that you aren't sure, which makes whatever few nuggets you're able to find look a lot less usable in context.

It's simply better to find one or two strong reasons for a read and avoid trying to fit their entire play to a singular mindset. It's simply impossible to do partially because it's extremely rare for that criteria to be met in the first place since gamestate shifts are very common in games, and partially because it's simply not possible to have so good a grasp on what the scumteam are doing that you can make that sort of call without already knowing the entire team.

As another example for why this strategy is superior, it's much harder for scum to play against as well. Complex cases with lots of moving parts trend towards being much easier to counter, since each singular point is like a joint in a suit of armor. The metal itself can be tough, but the joints are weak spots that cause a lot of damage if they are pierced.

A subpoint to this is that you don't need to read every single slot at the same time. If there are players in the game you historically have trouble reading, then don't try to right away. Get reads on the people you can, and see if you can find anything out from the way you're viewing the game onto other player's alignments. Indirect reading can especially be strong against players that rely a lot on direct engagements to fool people as mafia.

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2. Develop your playstyle.


Everybody is different. Everybody's brain is different. What necessarily works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another person, and it rarely works well when you attempt to brute force your way into a playstyle that does not work for you. That's not necessarily a failure on your part if you view another player as stronger than you, yet you can't fathom how they play the game. That's likely a sign that you simply look at the game through a different lens intuitively, and working on that specifically is how you're going to improve in the long run. Even if you do copy other players who do get results from their methods of playing the game, what exactly does it give you? You don't know exactly why it works, you haven't done the work to develop that style yourself iteratively over many games, and you won't know how to adapt it to suit whatever specific circumstances you will come across. It's simply better to work on your own understanding of the game if you want longer term results.

Ultimately, you want to have a pretty solid idea of what you are looking for, and roughly what gives you the most accurate reads. After that, just play the game. After each game finishes, go through your posts and try to recall your reasons for having specific reads, making specific plays, what have you. It's important to analyze yourself to develop your own style in this way, because this is how you grow as a player by figuring out when what you're doing does and doesn't work. The exact same approach doesn't work in every single game. Sometimes you will have to adapt to play around other people, sometimes it's your time to step up and lead. Recognizing different situations and deciding what your best approach is and how to read what's going on and the players within the game for that scenario is a strong part of building adaptability to many different gamestates and consistency. This is a big reason I disapprove of blind sheeping so heavily; it does nothing to build yourself up as a player, and the game itself is more fun when everybody is trying their hardest regardless.

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3. Learn how to play as scum. And town.


This should hopefully be obvious, but learning how to play both alignments is very important to becoming good at either of them. If you don't understand how the mafia are going to approach a situation, how can you possibly try to determine whether someone is approaching the game from a mafia mindset as town? Similarly, how can you expect to properly fool a town if you've never been properly fooled by the mafia?

It's a simple thing, but it's one thing that I also find to be a bit ridiculous about this site. Too many players don't enjoy playing one or the other alignment, which is... fine, but playing a well fought game as either alignment feels very different than the other, and you're missing part of that experience both by only trying as one alignment as well as potentially preventing other players from experiencing it as well.

Playing either alignment is about heart. You cannot properly improve at either alignment unless you can throw yourself out there as that alignment. Your play as either alignment is a balancing act, as changing aspects of one will require changes to the other. Attempting to find the balance between the two is a neverending source of potential improvement that makes the game never quite masterable, and that's what is so fascinating about it in the first place.

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4. Be willing to make mistakes.


Being wrong is entirely fine. The measure of you as a player doesn't equate to how often you are right or wrong on your reads or your approach to the game, but how much you're willing to take those risks and step up to the plate when you are needed to. It's much easier to see where you've went wrong when you make that step and fail, rather than if you succeed in a safe game.

You can't learn how to be charismatic in a game if you don't try.
You can't learn how to improve your reads if you don't risk them being wrong.

It's just as much a skill being able to determine whether your pushes are likely correct enough to be worth pushing, but you won't ever be able to develop that skill if you don't try it first. This extends to every part of the game, including reading specific players, reading subsets of players, or even using PRs.

It's not stupid to be bold. It's only stupid if you don't learn from the experience.

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5. Be willing to put the ego aside. During the game, the team comes first.


I made an experiment around mid-2019, namely I played several games as my newest account at that time, Blake Belladonna. I would get whatever reads I could and ram them into the ground until they succeeded. It was a very enlightening experience, since it taught me several lessons that I still hold to heart to this day. Ultimately, the approach would prove chaotic, polarizing, and ultimately a very high risk, medium reward plan.

That was a strategy I would use for quite a few situations, namely most times I would get a scumread I was reasonably confident in. It CAN work, of course, but it's best used carefully and in situations where it's absolutely necessary or where the drawbacks won't matter.

It is, however, necessary to explain where I'm coming from with regards to ego. In this specific context, I'm referring to how it's used, rather than its presence. Having the confidence to push your reads is not necessarily ego. It becomes ego when you're creating a negative environment or otherwise putting up a wall in front of other players to prevent their word from having any impact in the discussion before they've even started.

Mafia is, at its core, a team game. Playing solo is always going to be an impediment outside of very specific circumstances because if town is fragmented beyond belief, all the scumteam have to do is not let any momentum build on any of their members and town will eat itself alive. A town that functions as a unit is any scumteam's worst nightmare, so maintaining goodwill with the rest of the playerlist is an important part of the game, regardless of whether you are content to follow or are looking to lead.

When in doubt, remember this. Town doesn't win until the last scum is dead.

---
I think that we have barely scratched the surface on what mafia can be as a game. It's a fantastic method of discovering how you think and process problems, it's great for training critical thinking skills and ingenuity (at least, if you allow it to), and it's complex enough that it's entirely possible that you can play it forever without it getting stale. I've been looking to study this game for the past two years, and it's very difficult to do so with the site in it's current state.

I hope that this helps at least a little bit in improving the overall skill level of the site. I'm excited for what has yet to be discovered and I want to see how far we can push mafia as a competitive pasttime and as a study into the human mind.

---
This was haphazardly created in an afternoon and so might be rough around the edges. If I miss something (very likely) and somebody gets around to pointing it out/explaining it before I do, I will quote them here.

Thank you and good luck!
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:24 pm

Post by popsofctown »

I think it is really really important for the health of the game that people care about winning on each alignment. If they don't naturally care about winning as one alignment I think they should manually compensate.
I think it's possible to prefer one alignment without having a significant difference in your motivation to win as one of them.

I've rarely felt like a game was unfun because my opponents or teammates were unskilled, I wonder what that means about me :shifty:

This was a good read and it is too wellwritten for me to tease Alyssa for being a tryhard like I planned
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 1, popsofctown wrote:I think it is really really important for the health of the game that people care about winning on each alignment. If they don't naturally care about winning as one alignment I think they should manually compensate.
I think it's possible to prefer one alignment without having a significant difference in your motivation to win as one of them.

I've rarely felt like a game was unfun because my opponents or teammates were unskilled, I wonder what that means about me :shifty:

This was a good read and it is too wellwritten for me to tease Alyssa for being a tryhard like I planned
Yeah, I mostly mean instances where the preference results in a lack of trying. It's not an issue at all otherwise
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Post by Ramcius »

I agree with most of this. Only thing I can say is that mafia isn't complex, it's people who make it complex by overthinking everything
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:25 pm

Post by Flavor Leaf »

In post 3, Ramcius wrote:I agree with most of this. Only thing I can say is that mafia isn't complex, it's people who make it complex by overthinking everything
I would say anything that asks you to blatantly lie and manipulate players in a social standard, and accusing players of doing so, and loads of different ways to go about doing so makes the game itself complex, as it allows the players to make it complex. You can simplify the complexities down, but stronger scumplay would eventually make it complex again, even if once you get it, it’s a rather easy game to follow.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:27 pm

Post by Flavor Leaf »

I liked the read, and I think is an overall great philosophy on Mafia. I like the ‘competitive pastime’ notations as well.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:39 pm

Post by Auro »

Ego (post). :P
This should be a wiki article too!
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:09 am

Post by Psyche »

is mafia discussion getting more active or am i just imagining
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:18 am

Post by Ramcius »

In post 4, Flavor Leaf wrote:
In post 3, Ramcius wrote:I agree with most of this. Only thing I can say is that mafia isn't complex, it's people who make it complex by overthinking everything
I would say anything that asks you to blatantly lie and manipulate players in a social standard, and accusing players of doing so, and loads of different ways to go about doing so makes the game itself complex, as it allows the players to make it complex. You can simplify the complexities down, but stronger scumplay would eventually make it complex again, even if once you get it, it’s a rather easy game to follow.
Why would you need to lie and manipulate as a town? Even as a scum you can limit it to minimum. Accusing people isn't hard, you just need to ask people why they do things you don't understand and then evaluate their answer. It's just simple as that
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:43 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I'll just say that I don't agree with a lot of stuff in here.

Even just the premise that "site meta is going downhill" when town are performing better and better and winning more and more games.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:01 pm

Post by Titus »

In post 9, RadiantCowbells wrote:I'll just say that I don't agree with a lot of stuff in here.

Even just the premise that "site meta is going downhill" when town are performing better and better and winning more and more games.
They are winning because of the setups, not because of good townplay usually.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:29 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Factually untrue given that the normal setups are if anything less townsided than they've been over the last few years, the newbie setup is significantly better for scum than M6, and yet...

If you want to claim that the meta is devolving find concrete indicators of meta quality and establish their rate of change over time, don't just assert it because you feel like its true

I've literally been hearing this claim made since 2013 and towns are by any objective indicator I can come up with better right now than they have been any point during that time
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:43 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

i feel like town wr has improved but it doesn't feel like it because they way town is lowkey securing wins is kinda unfair

these days there is quite a sizable amount of players who when they roll town, whether they know it or not, are basically trust telling their alignment away

whether alignment soft-trust-telling is a trend on the rise or people are adapting by being more open to meta'ing these days vs the past ( i do recall a very stong stigma against meta'ing individuals when i first started), the point is town have gained a huge footing when it doesn't feel like town has done much solving to achieve this gain and scum don't actually have the tools to beat this

which is probably why there is a sentiment of townplay doesn't feel like its improving when the stats say otherwise

another explanation is rose tinted glasses
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:58 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

i mean

creature and nsg had a day when they were considered to basically trust tell as scum

creature won 2 scum play scummies

i don't necessarily disagree that it's something to have a philosophical issue with but i don't think the issue has gotten worse

if anything i think the issue is the opposite... a lot of the times towns just roflstomp so hard that the wins feel cheap
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:00 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

yeah but if creature trust tells 10 games and then breaks it one time

thats 10 wins for town and 1 win for scum so the wr shows

ok im exaggerating but you get the point
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:02 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

the best solution is to instill fear into the collective consciousness of ms.net that anybody will break their trust tells at any point and make them paranoid and scared so we all turn on each other at every corner until we become no more than just brute savages
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:07 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

i really don't think creature can be considered to be doing anything in the realm of trust telling at all

and the effect that you're seeing is moreso that people need to be better at scum than they needed to be in the past to have any chance whatsoever in lobbies where town isn't selfdestructing

like the definition of creature trust telling was him literally 0 posting until he flies in saying "how can we solve this game game is hard"

creature posts a lot now and pushes coherent teams. i don't think any of the scum players you're thinking of don't do that. that used to not be part of the bare minimum to not be treated as a slot that trust tells itself clear. even on MU there are a lot of slots that don't do even that.

but i really don't want to take over Ank's thread, I just wanted to say my bit then peace out, so I won't respond further.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:59 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

I can go into this more later, but I think the town winrates going up can be pretty easily explained in a way that still correlates with skill level average still going down.

Titus is the closest to my own theory, but more in the general thought process more than the details.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:02 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 16, RadiantCowbells wrote:and the effect that you're seeing is moreso that people need to be better at scum than they needed to be in the past to have any chance whatsoever in lobbies where town isn't selfdestructing
This is also generally true, but I believe a good chunk of this is that the average game size is smaller and a lot of the medium sized games trend towards expecting a lot more from scum players than town players.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:01 pm

Post by popsofctown »

Is it worth arguing about? If you think site skill level is the highest it's ever been, you could still want it to rise even higher.

I'm not sure it's definitely the case that mafia is funner if site skill level is higher, but it might be specifically true for the experiences of players who are strong at the game.
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"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:38 pm

Post by Flavor Leaf »

I feel like town have been playing better lately, to be fair. However, I have rolled scum like 15+ times in the past year, give me a break with these rolls, guys.

Creature just abused everyone’s meta of him that they started talking to him about, which he should have. He used to get hard hard hard meta’d.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:35 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

In post 19, popsofctown wrote:Is it worth arguing about? If you think site skill level is the highest it's ever been, you could still want it to rise even higher.

I'm not sure it's definitely the case that mafia is funner if site skill level is higher, but it might be specifically true for the experiences of players who are strong at the game.
In post 20, Flavor Leaf wrote:I feel like town have been playing better lately, to be fair. However, I have rolled scum like 15+ times in the past year, give me a break with these rolls, guys.

Creature just abused everyone’s meta of him that they started talking to him about, which he should have. He used to get hard hard hard meta’d.
ok but

it doesnt help people get better when people are making posts like this extolling the virtues of a dead meta where towns were objectively worse at this game

look at some of my scum games in 2015 and tell me you think i go undefeated playing like that in 2019
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:01 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

giving guides to improving is great and the meta has a LOT of problems but the claim that i keep hearing that towns are terrible nowadays when even top tier scum players like maria and FL are losing a lot of games now when they never used to is purely fictional and i have been hearing the same circlejerk for the last five years and people really need to start thinking critically about that claim. there are a lot of metrics that you can use to judge it as true or false and not one that i have looked at suggests towns are not improving dramatically
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:02 pm

Post by skitter30 »

i think towns are a little worse than maybe like 2018 but not like ~significantly~ so
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:06 pm

Post by popsofctown »

In post 21, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 19, popsofctown wrote:Is it worth arguing about? If you think site skill level is the highest it's ever been, you could still want it to rise even higher.

I'm not sure it's definitely the case that mafia is funner if site skill level is higher, but it might be specifically true for the experiences of players who are strong at the game.
In post 20, Flavor Leaf wrote:I feel like town have been playing better lately, to be fair. However, I have rolled scum like 15+ times in the past year, give me a break with these rolls, guys.

Creature just abused everyone’s meta of him that they started talking to him about, which he should have. He used to get hard hard hard meta’d.
ok but

it doesnt help people get better when people are making posts like this extolling the virtues of a dead meta where towns were objectively worse at this game

look at some of my scum games in 2015 and tell me you think i go undefeated playing like that in 2019
I'm not sure how much we disagree?
Can we agree this OP is better if it omits a subjective assessment of whether towns are better or worse right now?
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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