Are there software tools for analysing forum threads?

[Ythan]

It's gonna be funny when Gamma gets back isn't it.

[Cabd]

The new parts of the site that were in the works included functionality to do a secret alt each game... but don't expect that to ever materialize.


You can always create a secret alt each game, but i doubt the player base writ large will do so.

[Ramcius]

That was a joke as I take inflation of key words to counter meta software.

[Syryana]

That was a joke as I don't have a better argument than "meta sucks and I hate it".

FTFY.

[Jake The Wolfie]

The proposed AI that I proposed which was proposed by me would be a direct counter to meta, as it would be a message that town!You would post. Get an autoposter to post it when you would normally post it, too.

[Syryana]

Yeah, which is beyond what I consider fair grounds for outside tools. In my opinion:

Unacceptable tools:
Autoposters
AI that can gamesolve
AI that can make alignment indicative posts for you

Acceptable:
Automated gathering of meta data
Automated analysis of voting/posting in a game (i.e. who made how many posts etc., to be clear this does NOT include analysis of alignments)
Similar automation of data gathering not mentioned above

Anything that helps a player get data that they themselves can analyze and present is fine. Getting the computer to play the game for you is not.

[Jake The Wolfie]

What's the defining line between your Unnacceptable tools and Acceptable tools?

[the worst]

Yeah, which is beyond what I consider fair grounds for outside tools. In my opinion:

Unacceptable tools:
Autoposters
AI that can gamesolve
AI that can make alignment indicative posts for you

Acceptable:
Automated gathering of meta data
Automated analysis of voting/posting in a game (i.e. who made how many posts etc., to be clear this does NOT include analysis of alignments)
Similar automation of data gathering not mentioned above

Anything that helps a player get data that they themselves can analyze and present is fine. Getting the computer to play the game for you is not.

^ this guy is inside my head.

[Gamma Emerald]

What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding

What is the spirit of maifa?

Usage of your own head to solve game

so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?

How I'm supposed to know what you consider as special roles?

Anything that isn’t vanilla

[Gamma Emerald]

Ramcius: bad troll
Also ramcius: lemme totally bite this hook though

Nah, I'm just benevolent person, we should help to less fortunate than us, we should educate people, who clearly lack of basic understanding of things

Also, I never said that you're bad, just petty, you know, someone, who can't really put anything creative together, bad troll at least can come up with something new and they are entertaining

This is extraordinarily pompous
Are you part of MENSA?

[Ythan]

Anything that isn’t vanilla

It's gonna be funny when Gamma gets back isn't it.

[yessiree]

i am the spirit of mafia

O great spirit of mafia, what is your wisdom?

[Ramcius]

That was a joke as I don't have a better argument than "meta sucks and I hate it".

FTFY.

I don't hate meta, I just think that using your own head to read people based on their actions in current game is much more fun and valuable, but I also understand that there are plenty of people, who are incapable of doing so and they need some gimmick to feel good at mafia and meta is just like that. I suggest them to find another hobby instead, it would give them more joy

Also, you killed me with "key words" and misinterpreting absolute meta, after that I realised that you are just a troll, who have little idea of what was discussed here

[Ramcius]

What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding

What is the spirit of maifa?

Usage of your own head to solve game

so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?

How I'm supposed to know what you consider as special roles?

Anything that isn’t vanilla

I can agree that vanilla cop and other roles that operates on same ground are bad, but majority of roles are fine, how simple role like visitor goes against my principle of spirit of mafia in your opinion? Or doc? You still need to use your own head how to properly use them and opposing team have to use their head how to play against them.

[Ramcius]

Ramcius: bad troll
Also ramcius: lemme totally bite this hook though

Nah, I'm just benevolent person, we should help to less fortunate than us, we should educate people, who clearly lack of basic understanding of things

Also, I never said that you're bad, just petty, you know, someone, who can't really put anything creative together, bad troll at least can come up with something new and they are entertaining

This is extraordinarily pompous
Are you part of MENSA?

I'm just confident.

You were in the thread with MENSA puzzle cards, do you really think I'm on same level as them?

[Ramcius]

On topic - anything that goes past current game is unacceptable. I'm ok with software that can gather data in current game and helps person to have easier time with analysing what is going on

If you think I'm overreacting, look up how Mulch got executed in Beneath the mask game, also that example prove existence of absolute meta that Syryana is saying doesn't exist

[Gamma Emerald]

Ramcius: bad troll
Also ramcius: lemme totally bite this hook though

Nah, I'm just benevolent person, we should help to less fortunate than us, we should educate people, who clearly lack of basic understanding of things

Also, I never said that you're bad, just petty, you know, someone, who can't really put anything creative together, bad troll at least can come up with something new and they are entertaining

This is extraordinarily pompous
Are you part of MENSA?

I'm just confident.

You were in the thread with MENSA puzzle cards, do you really think I'm on same level as them?

full disclosure, yes I do think that.

And like, are you saying all cop-like roles are bad? Interesting.

In addition is someone playing ignorant to a key part of someone's else playstyle in a way that guarantees their miselimination okay? Because that's what can happen if you completely ignore other games when determining how to read people in a current one.

[Ramcius]

Ramcius: bad troll
Also ramcius: lemme totally bite this hook though

Nah, I'm just benevolent person, we should help to less fortunate than us, we should educate people, who clearly lack of basic understanding of things

Also, I never said that you're bad, just petty, you know, someone, who can't really put anything creative together, bad troll at least can come up with something new and they are entertaining

This is extraordinarily pompous
Are you part of MENSA?

I'm just confident.

You were in the thread with MENSA puzzle cards, do you really think I'm on same level as them?

full disclosure, yes I do think that.

And like, are you saying all cop-like roles are bad? Interesting.

In addition is someone playing ignorant to a key part of someone's else playstyle in a way that guarantees their miselimination okay? Because that's what can happen if you completely ignore other games when determining how to read people in a current one.

I mean roles that can't be countered with any reasonable strategy - let's say you are known good scum player, how can you defend yourself against cop checking you N1 and you being executed D2? I mean, roles that gives ambiguous results or have a way to prevent guilty are fine. For example watcher is fine, it can get guilty, but scum can choose not likely to be watched target, or mod can give them ninja. It might require suboptimal plays from scum team, but it brings more mind game aspects to the game without breaking it too much. I hope you get the idea

Why only way to avoid your own miselimination is to bring playstyle argument of other person? That sounds like very niche example and person in question seems like very bad at mafia too

As for first thing, I see no reason to drop my honest asshole persona, when I'm dealing with bunch of trolls who show no real intention to discuss the issue. Chess engine argument is bs, their applications are different and meta software don't make you better at mafia. "Everything is allowed at war" argument was funny too, warfare is regulated, good luck using chemical or bio (virus) weapon and see how far that'll get you, probably to Hague Tribunal. "Key words" and ruining your own town meta with inflating your scum game with your towntells as a counter to meta software is so detached from reality that it's not even funny. Ythan was being Ythan. You have some grudges against me too, so your approach was a bit more hostile than it would've been without them.

If any of you want to provide an actual argument(s) that can be applied to majority of the games to prove that meta is good/healthy for game of mafia, I might have take that person seriously and try to have an actual discussion, but it was proven in past that meta often is unhealthy and forces people to opt for secret alts or keep same playstyle just so they won't be accused for having different playstyle that was expected based on their previous games.

Lastly, I doubt mafia was invented with meta in mind, it looks like a game where people try to deceive and see through deception, not to dig through old games and find similar patterns to prove someone to be in informed minority instead of trying to find their missteps in the game at hand

[Gamma Emerald]

The way to play around a cop is to play in a way that doesn't get you checked. That generally means putting yourself out there so you make enough of an impression that the cop doesn't feel like your alignment needs to be sorted via its power. And there is a role counter to cop, several in fact, but a lot of them aren't normal.

I understand my wording wasn't great, but what I meant was say player X is being wagoned for reasons you know mean nothing for them. Are you just supposed to stand by and let it happen?

I think the way I approach you is somewhat that I like to bully you, since you tend to react strongly. I know it's not nice but you've never taken it personally and I've never really made it go that far.

For me, I like having meta be used because it incentivizes me to constantly improve. I've never felt like it's unhealthy, if someone is good at metaing me I tend to actually lean into that, but that's probably because I'm consistently SRed as town.

I don't think mafia was invented with meta in mind either, but that doesn't mean it can't be part of it now.

[Ramcius]

The way to play around a cop is to play in a way that doesn't get you checked. That generally means putting yourself out there so you make enough of an impression that the cop doesn't feel like your alignment needs to be sorted via its power. And there is a role counter to cop, several in fact, but a lot of them aren't normal.

I understand my wording wasn't great, but what I meant was say player X is being wagoned for reasons you know mean nothing for them. Are you just supposed to stand by and let it happen?

I think the way I approach you is somewhat that I like to bully you, since you tend to react strongly. I know it's not nice but you've never taken it personally and I've never really made it go that far.

For me, I like having meta be used because it incentivizes me to constantly improve. I've never felt like it's unhealthy, if someone is good at metaing me I tend to actually lean into that, but that's probably because I'm consistently SRed as town.

I don't think mafia was invented with meta in mind either, but that doesn't mean it can't be part of it now.

Cop has another really nasty effect - it can clear townies too. Adjusting your playstyle completely to counter one type of a role is a bit much, don't you think? Yes, there are roles, but as you know, they aren't normal or even are considered bastard, so they can't be really used in games. Also cop isn't only role,some iterations of gunsmith can have similar result, sure, it can give false positive on vig, but chances are low, so it can be used as a cop for most cases.

How about finding different target for execution? From practice I can tell that saving person from execution doesn't end the problem, you have to prove that person is town without a doubt, otherwise people will be back at same person again and you might be not there to fend them off. Sometimes it's better to let it go through and move from there. Even misexecution can be used to progress the game. Info is info, it's just how people use it or how capable are they of using it to it's full potential

I always thought that I get a bit too hard with you and you have some grudges, but if you say that you like banters and don't take it to heart, I won't feel bad in future, when I say something that can't be consider polite to you

[Gamma Emerald]

Those are some fair responses, actually. On the point of of miseliminations helping to solve, you could probably just argue against the thing you know is irrelevant without bringing in meta, and if it still goes through you can try to figure out who wasn't pushing in good faith.

[Ramcius]

Those are some fair responses, actually. On the point of of miseliminations helping to solve, you could probably just argue against the thing you know is irrelevant without bringing in meta, and if it still goes through you can try to figure out who wasn't pushing in good faith.

Tbf, scum aren't spearheading misexecutions that often, it's a good idea to look of people's reasons to join wagon or stay off wagon. But that applies only to wagons that forms naturally, last second "we just need to execute someone to avoid no execution" wagons are bad for analysis

[Spirit of Mafia]

i am the spirit of mafia

VOTE: the worst

CC

[the worst]

Well played - I wasn't dedicated enough to that joke.

What's the defining line between your Unnacceptable tools and Acceptable tools?

This is an interesting question wrt the spirit of mafia, I think. I'd say any tools which automate objective, manual processes (literal data crunching - literal "who voted who", etc. Any automated process which actually makes an effort to play the game for you (AI or machine learning to analyse scum habits strikes me as a glaring hypothetical example) isn't acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

Regarding the earlier category also - I'd say most players worth their salt know that objective information isn't the "be all and end all" of finding scum. Even players who specialise in VCA are rarely so hyperfocused on VCA that peripheral information becomes pointless. This kind of informational analysis is about creating things to talk about, moreso than divining people's alignments.

I don't think having the process automated creates an unfair advantage at a site meta level either really? As soon as there published or tried-and-tested "tells" based on objective data, people can manipulate them. Then there are consistent methods of manipulation which become scum indicators.....and so forth. It just adds another layer to the game.

[Jake The Wolfie]

i am the spirit of mafia

VOTE: the worst

CC

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