Are there software tools for analysing forum threads?

[Ramcius]

Equalizer of what?

[Gamma Emerald]

What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding

What is the spirit of maifa?

Usage of your own head to solve game

so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?

[Ythan]

That's why I tried running mountainous vanillas back in the day.

[the worst]

ok the cool groovy thing about computers is that like the software we're talking about is pseudo-calculating in nature. we aren't talking about mafia AI. now i want to study AI and create a mafia player and call him bob3142. i digress: what kind of thing do haters think a program is going to do that a human couldn't do given time/energy?

I'm the oldest account in this thread yet. Does that make me the spirit of Mafia Past?

i love this.

[Jake The Wolfie]

What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding

What is the spirit of maifa?

Usage of your own head to solve game

so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?

No, Special roles are an in-game tool to help you solve game

[Gamma Emerald]

Let him answer.

[yessiree]

viewtopic.php?p=11837966#p11837966
this might be what you're looking for.

What the point of playing mafia then, if you want program to do all the work for you?

What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding

You can make the same argument for chess engines. What's the point of playing chess if AlphaZero can easily beat every grandmaster in the world?

A lot of people questioned the point of Deep Blue at the time, but Deep Blue and subsequent chess engines like stockfish, alphaZero elevated chess to new heights that wouldn't have been possible without them. The program's primary purpose is in assisting people to get better at the game. I can foresee programs similar being adapted for mafia with similar benefits.

Of course, that isn't to say people wouldn't be abusing programs to their benefit for online mafia. While it would be very simple to catch engine abusers in online chess, it would be borderline impossible to catch a tool-assisted mafia player.

[Cabd]

Equalizer of what?

Time.

I used to keep a literal metabinder of things that majorly differed between an individual's town games and mafia games, because I had the free time to read almost every game onsite.

Turns of phrase, post count, post density, post timing... there were a LOT of super-specific tells like that.


But now? I'm a father and I work full time and I don't have the time to do that. Automating part of that process, and then applying human logic to the patterns it detects? That could be incredibly useful.

And it'll march the arms race along further. But, you cannot stuff the genie back in the bottle. The working solution to countries obtaining nuclear weapons was never "That's unfair, you should stop doing that"; just as it was for the shotgun (Famously detested by the Germans during Trench Warfare) or the longbow, or the battering ram, or any other weapon in human history.

[Cabd]

Essentially, there's two "looks" for how this can go.

Look A: Players like myself and psyche develop our tools, and they stay with us, giving us an advantage

Look B: Players like myself and psyche develop our tools, post them for public use, and everyone advances their games.

[Cabd]

For instance, right now, I'm working on a PowerBI desktop (Free tool from Microsoft) script that ingests a game's worth of posts, and mines them for phrases and words of a given alignment. I tell the model who is town vs scum, and it tells me what words pop out to it.

[Ramcius]

Equalizer of what?

Time.

I used to keep a literal metabinder of things that majorly differed between an individual's town games and mafia games, because I had the free time to read almost every game onsite.

Turns of phrase, post count, post density, post timing... there were a LOT of super-specific tells like that.


But now? I'm a father and I work full time and I don't have the time to do that. Automating part of that process, and then applying human logic to the patterns it detects? That could be incredibly useful.

And it'll march the arms race along further. But, you cannot stuff the genie back in the bottle. The working solution to countries obtaining nuclear weapons was never "That's unfair, you should stop doing that"; just as it was for the shotgun (Famously detested by the Germans during Trench Warfare) or the longbow, or the battering ram, or any other weapon in human history.

You forgetting really important part of the mafia - balance. Improving town with software assistance isn't the answer you're looking for. You'll have to balance games somehow to make up for scum

[Ramcius]

For instance, right now, I'm working on a PowerBI desktop (Free tool from Microsoft) script that ingests a game's worth of posts, and mines them for phrases and words of a given alignment. I tell the model who is town vs scum, and it tells me what words pop out to it.

Elli had something like that, his conclusion was that using that was a mistake

[Ramcius]

What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding

What is the spirit of maifa?

Usage of your own head to solve game

so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?

How I'm supposed to know what you consider as special roles?

[Syryana]

Equalizer of what?

Time.

I used to keep a literal metabinder of things that majorly differed between an individual's town games and mafia games, because I had the free time to read almost every game onsite.

Turns of phrase, post count, post density, post timing... there were a LOT of super-specific tells like that.


But now? I'm a father and I work full time and I don't have the time to do that. Automating part of that process, and then applying human logic to the patterns it detects? That could be incredibly useful.

And it'll march the arms race along further. But, you cannot stuff the genie back in the bottle. The working solution to countries obtaining nuclear weapons was never "That's unfair, you should stop doing that"; just as it was for the shotgun (Famously detested by the Germans during Trench Warfare) or the longbow, or the battering ram, or any other weapon in human history.

You forgetting really important part of the mafia - balance. Improving town with software assistance isn't the answer you're looking for. You'll have to balance games somehow to make up for scum

You seem to be under the entirely mistaken impression that meta only helps town. Scum, armed with the same information, can easily use small differences in play to get miselims and cause other shenanigans.

The issue here isn't balance. The issue is how do these tools alter the mafia landscape and what quality of life improvements do they offer. Do people just use the tools to automatically win games? That's bad. It's also unlikely someone develops an AI sophisticated enough to do that. Automating things like vote counts and post history or meta? That's a convenience and I'm all for it.

Further, to Cabd's point, some of these tools already exist. They can benefit a small portion of players (i.e. the devs that made them) or they could be crowdsourced and available to all players if they choose to partake.

[Ythan]

What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding

What is the spirit of maifa?

Usage of your own head to solve game

so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?

How I'm supposed to know what you consider as special roles?

You know, power roles. In the game Mafia.

[Ramcius]

Equalizer of what?

Time.

I used to keep a literal metabinder of things that majorly differed between an individual's town games and mafia games, because I had the free time to read almost every game onsite.

Turns of phrase, post count, post density, post timing... there were a LOT of super-specific tells like that.


But now? I'm a father and I work full time and I don't have the time to do that. Automating part of that process, and then applying human logic to the patterns it detects? That could be incredibly useful.

And it'll march the arms race along further. But, you cannot stuff the genie back in the bottle. The working solution to countries obtaining nuclear weapons was never "That's unfair, you should stop doing that"; just as it was for the shotgun (Famously detested by the Germans during Trench Warfare) or the longbow, or the battering ram, or any other weapon in human history.

You forgetting really important part of the mafia - balance. Improving town with software assistance isn't the answer you're looking for. You'll have to balance games somehow to make up for scum

You seem to be under the entirely mistaken impression that meta only helps town. Scum, armed with the same information, can easily use small differences in play to get miselims and cause other shenanigans.

The issue here isn't balance. The issue is how do these tools alter the mafia landscape and what quality of life improvements do they offer. Do people just use the tools to automatically win games? That's bad. It's also unlikely someone develops an AI sophisticated enough to do that. Automating things like vote counts and post history or meta? That's a convenience and I'm all for it.

Further, to Cabd's point, some of these tools already exist. They can benefit a small portion of players (i.e. the devs that made them) or they could be crowdsourced and available to all players if they choose to partake.

You don't need sophisticated AI, you simply need a tool to run all person's games looking for specific word/phrase and how often person said it as either alignment. Good luck fighting this meta with arguments like "meta isn't accurate/sucks" or "you can't use meta from 1 or few games", you can't even alter meta as a scum providing only examples that benefits your agenda - software will provide absolute meta. Like I can do some things and bust my ass covering my own scum meta, but I can't do shit, if townies will be confirmed as a town and I'm dead to PoE.

[Ramcius]

What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding

What is the spirit of maifa?

Usage of your own head to solve game

so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?

How I'm supposed to know what you consider as special roles?

You know, power roles. In the game Mafia.

You know, you're still boring petty troll

[Ythan]

That's bound to happen when you define trolling as answering easy obvious questions you somehow couldn't find the answers to on your own.

[Jake The Wolfie]

What if we developed an AI which you input a user and a post, and it outputs a brand new post which would be the most town-meta for that player?

[Syryana]

You don't need sophisticated AI, you simply need a tool to run all person's games looking for specific word/phrase and how often person said it as either alignment. Good luck fighting this meta with arguments like "meta isn't accurate/sucks" or "you can't use meta from 1 or few games", you can't even alter meta as a scum providing only examples that benefits your agenda - software will provide absolute meta. Like I can do some things and bust my ass covering my own scum meta, but I can't do shit, if townies will be confirmed as a town and I'm dead to PoE.

So what? Scum have access to the tool too, and can artificially inflate their usage of certain key phrases to match their own town meta. Further, people in general aren't so consistent that a simple matching up of key phrases would lead to anything remotely resembling a game solve. If you've ever used meta before, you know there's no such thing as "absolute meta", no matter its source. The proposed tools here simply collate data. It's up to the user to analyze that data and present it to 12 other people in a way that they'd find compelling. So I'm a bit confused as to what you're actually arguing about here.

Pedit: I think the point, Jake, is that AI usage for the most part probably isn't kosher for mafia. We're talking about automating data gathering, not automating playing the game.

[Ramcius]

That's bound to happen when you define trolling as answering easy obvious questions you somehow couldn't find the answers to on your own.

No, that happens, when petty troll like you thinks he's so smart and others are morons. I'm pretty sure Gamma knows how to spell PR or power roles, therefore when he says "special roles", he means some specific PRs, I have no way of knowing which PRs he consider special, so I did what any person with working brains would do - I asked him. You know, that's what you do, when you lack of info to answer a question. I hope today's lesson will be helpful to you in the future

[Ythan]

Ramcius: bad troll
Also ramcius: lemme totally bite this hook though

[Ramcius]

Ramcius: bad troll
Also ramcius: lemme totally bite this hook though

Nah, I'm just benevolent person, we should help to less fortunate than us, we should educate people, who clearly lack of basic understanding of things

Also, I never said that you're bad, just petty, you know, someone, who can't really put anything creative together, bad troll at least can come up with something new and they are entertaining

[Ramcius]

You don't need sophisticated AI, you simply need a tool to run all person's games looking for specific word/phrase and how often person said it as either alignment. Good luck fighting this meta with arguments like "meta isn't accurate/sucks" or "you can't use meta from 1 or few games", you can't even alter meta as a scum providing only examples that benefits your agenda - software will provide absolute meta. Like I can do some things and bust my ass covering my own scum meta, but I can't do shit, if townies will be confirmed as a town and I'm dead to PoE.

So what? Scum have access to the tool too, and can artificially inflate their usage of certain key phrases to match their own town meta. Further, people in general aren't so consistent that a simple matching up of key phrases would lead to anything remotely resembling a game solve. If you've ever used meta before, you know there's no such thing as "absolute meta", no matter its source. The proposed tools here simply collate data. It's up to the user to analyze that data and present it to 12 other people in a way that they'd find compelling. So I'm a bit confused as to what you're actually arguing about here.

Pedit: I think the point, Jake, is that AI usage for the most part probably isn't kosher for mafia. We're talking about automating data gathering, not automating playing the game.

I know a better way - new secret alt every game. People are already fed up with meta usage, you want to make meta even more obnoxious?

[Cabd]

People are already fed up with meta usage

Kinda don't think you can speak for everyone here.