normal role/modifier tier list

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normal role/modifier tier list

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:08 pm

Post by schadd_ »

Spoiler:
Image


you can think of this as how much i like to put them in my setups.

S = Crucial, like if you took all these away i might just stop making normal setups (goes without saying for VT lol).
A = fun or good
B = if you took these away the setups would still be pretty much fine but i like having them
C = no problem taking these away
D = don't use these in your setups
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:18 pm

Post by Isis »

Why don't you like Psychologist?
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:34 pm

Post by schadd_ »

there's two competing concepts when you're choosing which member of the mafia to perpetrate the nightkill: having someone unlikely to be blocked/tracked vs. having someone that's fine to be sacrificed if you get watched. i dont really like this, but most of the time it's clear enough that you want to do the former and so watcher just ends up being a wickedly strong role that slightly discourages deepwolfing which is ultimately fine (imo. i could see someone putting watcher in C or D for that reason and i would also vibe with that)

psychologist vs. detective are opposites of each other, a thesis and an antithesis. you simply cannot play around both, so there is nothing to be done from the mafia here, they are just generic investigative roles resembling a weaker cop. my synthesis is to simply not use psychologist: detective's counterplay is workable (all things being equal, have the same player do the kill again) and also meshes into the already existing nightkill strategy from tracker/jk et al. (deepest wolf does the nightkill so they don't get investigated).

all this being said: detective probably belongs in B or B- tier now that i think about it
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:50 pm

Post by Isis »

It is true that player expectations matter and if every normal role as an equal distribution psychologist frustrates expectations and the behavior for the default strategy. But 2 goons, 1 mafia informed (setup), 9 town and a psychologist seems like a more interesting setup for the mafia and PR to play than 2 goons 1 mafia informed, 9 town and detective (neither are balanced obv).
So it's kind of a shame, but it kind of is valid to ice psychologist because it can't be counterplayed as part of a unified nightkill strategy going into a closed setup.

I think psych is kind of a fun role if you have informed to set it up or if mafia won't feel bad about their kill sequencing anyway because it's dictated by odd night/even night power roles or some other workaround. But I know those are baggage
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:28 pm

Post by schadd_ »

you can make a lot of things more fun/reasonable with information yeah. its an S- modifier. watcher is the key example of that for me. it just wouldnt ever occur to me to do that for psych
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:34 pm

Post by Isis »

I think I would score a lot of these items similarly.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:14 am

Post by Vi »

wut do u have against copy/paste

I'll spend an hour on this, sure. I've been out of the loop for the better part of a decade so etc.

*Night-Specific is too high. It's a worse X-Shot that makes it that much less likely for power roles to matter. I would consider arguing that in practice Novice and Night-Specific should switch places (yes I know one is a subset of the other).
*Multitasking is too high. It's only really good when it means that who performs Night actions doesn't matter. (As far as "but the last Mafia can't kill and X simultaneously", A) that messes with a lot of investigative abilities and B) no one complains when positive feedback runs over Towns with things like LyLo.)
*I'm conflicted about Informed. It opens a large design space but it also encourages the Mafia to fakeclaim it. The remedy for that would be massclaim, and I'm not sure if that's what you want in your Normal meta.
*Detective, Vig, and Gunsmith are probably too high. Like how is Detective not basically a Cop.
*Why tf did you people go with "Alien" over "Gaoler".
*Fruit Vendor is too high and probably overrated in general. (ha! ha! my setup has FRUIT!!)
*Voyeur is probably too high. It seems like a very swingy role in a way that info roles usually aren't.
*Vanilla Cop > Role Cop. Vanilla Cop is way too low relative to Neapolitan.
*Why T
F
did people create a universe where Watcher and Role Watcher are both things. Offhand it seems like something that belongs on the same tier as Role Cop, yeah.
*Macho is too low. Simple, effective, borderline unfalsifiable on a living player.
*Follower may be too high because of its ability to pull killing results out of nowhere.
*Neighbor and Neighborizer are too low and what is wrong with all of you.
*Watcher is too high. Like I'm surprised this role is Normal.
*Miller is too high, unless it's the Normal equivalent of Named.
*Announcing seems slightly too high. The role's workable for balance but seems lame.
*Finder was a lot less interesting after I reread the wiki page and saw that you couldn't specify what kind of role you're trying to find. Probably a little too high.
*Indecisive seems bad but may be too low.
*Commuter being so much lower than Ascetic is kind of :/ but I also think that allowing the player to choose when to commute is for cowards.
*Innocent Child and Friendly Neighbor may be slightly too low. They're not great but have uses as blunt instruments.
*Checker - another case of a bad name - is too high IMO. They may be interesting in certain non-Normal wackiness plans but etc.
*Mailman is probably slightly too low, although only slightly considering the mod's overhead in having to deal with it. Also I formally request that this role, given how gendered it is, be renamed "Postie".
*Visitor is too high. Even in non-Normal wackiness this is a negative utility role that feels bad to get.
*Activated is great for Innocent Child and redundant if not bad everywhere else, so it's probably fine as is.
*Sane Cop may actually be a little too low, purely because there are so many alternatives out there that it may be an unbelievable claim.
*Compulsive should be rated at the same level as the negative utility roles/modifiers. (How does this modifier interact with the Mafia kill potentially being compulsive?)
*Traitor is probably too high.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:27 am

Post by Isis »

I want to form a club for hating on Watcher
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:50 am

Post by Vi »

On reflection I'm guessing that the tier list assumes that an unfiltered Watcher wouldn't be used, so much as a Loyal Watcher or
People-Watcher
Voyeur??
Personal Watcher. In that case it would probably go where Loyal is.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:53 am

Post by Isis »

I don't think the tier list does
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:30 am

Post by Ircher »

What's wrong with strongman?
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:36 am

Post by Vi »

Roles (in this case protective ones) should work as indicated absent exceptions that are specifically noted in advance.
When this design principle causes conflicts (protective roles vs. Mafia kills) the conflicts should be resolved in order of fewest potential conflicts (so, protective roles' integrity should be prioritized because there are fewer ways for them to fail than Mafia kills).
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:36 am

Post by Alisae »

This sounds fun. can't wait to show off how much I don't know about normals!

(btw we'll be excluding vanilla roles in the tier list)
S - I love putting these roles in my games
A - You can put these in just about anything
B - You design the game around these
C - Situationally cool ig
D - I would probably never put these in my games

BTW this list was made w/ considering their unmodified versions and are within the context of normals.
Spoiler: Roles for town
S - JOAT, Jailkeeper, Innocent Child
A - Doctor, Bodyguard, Roleblocker, Rolestopper
B - Sane Cop, Vigilante, Alien, Gunsmith, Hider, PT Cop, Role Cop, Role Watcher, Traffic Analyist, Universal Backup, Watcher, Friendly Neighbor, Mason, Vengeful
C - Babysitter, Follower, Motion Detector, Neapolitan, Tracker, Vanilla Cop, Voyeur
D - Checker, Commuter, Detective, Psychologist, Finder, Fruit Vendor, Mailman, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Visitor, Miller, Encrypter

Spoiler: Roles for scum
S - JOAT, Encrypter, Roleblocker, Role Cop
A - Follower, Alien, Jailkeeper, Vanilla Cop, Neapolitan, Commuter
B - Traitor, Doctor, Gunsmith, Role Watcher, Traffic Analyst
C - Sane Cop, Finder, Mailman, PT Cop, Tracker, Voyeur, Watcher
D - Babysitter, Bodyguard, Detective, Checker, Fruit Vendor, Hider, Strongman, Motion Detector, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Psychologist, Universal Backup, Visitor

Spoiler: Modifiers
S - Combined, Indecisive, Multitasking, X-Shot, Ascetic, Macho
A - Activated, Non-Consectuive Night, Roaming, Night Specific, Even/Odd, Novice, Lazy
B - Announcing, Bulletproof, Compulsive, Disloyal, Loyal, Enabler, Informed, Loud, Weak
C - Backup, Complex, Simple
D - Ninja, Neighbor, Personal
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:37 am

Post by Alisae »

In post 10, Ircher wrote:What's wrong with strongman?
To describe it in one simple word: Powercreep.
You generally always want to gate strongmans otherwise there's no point to protective roles.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:09 am

Post by Nahdia »

Strongman is a bad role. Either have protectives or don't. In general if you think you need a strongman in your game, you either have too many protectives or need to add macho modifers.

people sleep on Loud. it's a great modifier.
also i would put bulletproof like, even lower. bulletproof shouldn't be in closed setups IMO. except for SK's i guess, but those are their own bag of yikes.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:11 am

Post by Nahdia »

tbh i just generally dont enjoy protective roles in closed games. let the mafia kill who they wanna kill, dangit.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:31 am

Post by Vi »

In post 14, Nahdia wrote:also i would put bulletproof like, even lower. bulletproof shouldn't be in closed setups IMO.
I kind of glossed over this one but
*the tier list seems to assume a huge affinity with Vigs so I guess they have more of a place in that kind of meta
*Most Bulletproofs are conditional and anti-Town
*Now that you've mentioned it I totally want to see a setup with an alignment-ambiguous unrestricted Bulletproof.
pour the wiiiiiiiiine

**not least because of what that will do to the fakeclaim meta

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Loud feels like something that belongs in the same tier as Friendly Neighbor, but honestly I kind of don't immediately get the appeal.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:36 am

Post by Nahdia »

very good roles: bodyguard (the only protective role i like), detective, psychologist, commuter, roleblocker, tracker, visitor, traffic analyst (in the right setup), vt, vanilla cop, neopolitan, follower, friendly neighbor, ascetic

fine roles i guess: watcher (in the right setup), vig, vengeful, neighbor, neighborizer, pt cop, fruit vendor, innocent child, hider, motion detector, voyeur, JOAT, mason

not inherently bad roles but usually bad in execution: doctor, jailkeeper, alien, rolestopper (why tf does normal use the "stops kills" variant of this????), bulletproof, backup, miller, cop, ninja, encryptor

inherently bad roles: strongman, traitor (in normal closed setups anyway)
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:38 am

Post by Nahdia »

actually maybe put commuter down to "fine". it shouldn't stop kills either.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:38 am

Post by Nahdia »

although im more okay with it than roles that protect other slots. if the role is just commuter, like, okay. mafia can be punished for targeting that. it should probably be an X-shot or like, specific night though.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:42 am

Post by schadd_ »

Spoiler: v
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Night-Specific is too high. It's a worse X-Shot that makes it that much less likely for power roles to matter. I would consider arguing that in practice Novice and Night-Specific should switch places (yes I know one is a subset of the other).
i guess for this list i thought of "night-specific" as night specifications not otherwise listed

i think "nights 2&3" is a sweet spot for a lot of investigatives, in practice it's not very different from novice but it prevents one person from getting too insane of an amount of results (in particular i would consider "3" to be such an amount a lot of the time)

in any case it gives the designer a lot of freedom to prevent things from screwing with each other, or to let things screw with each other a precise amount, e.g. pairing a town odd-night vig with a n2 n3 doctor

night 3 roles are also sexy and fun
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Multitasking is too high. It's only really good when it means that who performs Night actions doesn't matter. (As far as "but the last Mafia can't kill and X simultaneously", A) that messes with a lot of investigative abilities and B) no one complains when positive feedback runs over Towns with things like LyLo.)
the choice of who gets to do nightkills is valuable i think, and multitasking gives this choice more freedom. moreover it enables the idea of having a mafia power role try to be the last one alive (if they aren't multitasking then a mafia roleblocker as the sole mafia is just a goon). it also enables something i've been enamored with lately which is having a large amount of weak investigatives for the mafia (i.e. voyeurs).

also it allows one person to have multiple roles to use separately but i'm not really pro-that
In post 6, Vi wrote:*I'm conflicted about Informed. It opens a large design space but it also encourages the Mafia to fakeclaim it. The remedy for that would be massclaim, and I'm not sure if that's what you want in your Normal meta.
that does not seem to have happened in practice.
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Detective, Vig, and Gunsmith are probably too high. Like how is Detective not basically a Cop.
my problem with cop is it is sort of detrimental to counter-play on the mafia's behalf. there are two counterplays, but they both suck: eliminate the cop instead (this like never happens. i think it would only work if you counter-claimed first, which is why i like mafia watchers/voyeurs/etc) or be like I'm a Miller you Have to Believe me.

detective has counterplay in a sense, via Clever selection of nightkill perpetrators; this is still not so good and it should probably be b tier. gunsmith you can deal with via claim - a gunsmith guilty still usually gets eliminated but well you can theoretically get out of it with a silver tongue and/or good foresight/planning/etc.

vig is kind of unlike these things - the reasoning to vig someone is different from the reasoning to cop someone, and simply appearing to be town is a much better counterplay against vigs than cops. in any case: vig is as high as it is because it's literally fun. waking up to a mafia getting shot is like mindblowing. if it doesn't get you giddy i have no idea why you play mafia
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Fruit Vendor is too high and probably overrated in general. (ha! ha! my setup has FRUIT!!)
you understand what the appeal is so i'm not sure what the snag is here
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Voyeur is probably too high. It seems like a very swingy role in a way that info roles usually aren't.
it's just a stupidly low amount of information which is funny
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Vanilla Cop > Role Cop. Vanilla Cop is way too low relative to Neapolitan.
neapolitan is like the perfect model of an investigative role to me. vanilla cop is just rarely very useful for town i think but it's a great medium-info mafia investigative
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Macho is too low. Simple, effective, borderline unfalsifiable on a living player.
idk what unfalsifiable means here. its a classic modifier though.
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Follower may be too high because of its ability to pull killing results out of nowhere.
its a very similar thing to tracker
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Neighbor and Neighborizer are too low and what is wrong with all of you.
i think we are just over it
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Miller is too high, unless it's the Normal equivalent of Named.
i don't use cops in my setups so miller is just for fun
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Innocent Child and Friendly Neighbor may be slightly too low. They're not great but have uses as blunt instruments.
they distract from the actual fun version which is masons (SO much better than the sum of their parts, i.e. IC roles and neighbors)
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Compulsive should be rated at the same level as the negative utility roles/modifiers. (How does this modifier interact with the Mafia kill potentially being compulsive?)
it is where it is for me because the way it has to be handled in the normal space (i.e. no randomization) sucks really bad
In post 6, Vi wrote:*Traitor is probably too high.
sure. i think it's a playable role but it just plays so differently from the groupscum everybody's already used to. it's probably best for themes
Last edited by schadd_ on Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:44 am

Post by schadd_ »

In post 10, Ircher wrote:What's wrong with strongman?
when a doctor protects someone but they die anyway it sucks. moreover that should uniquely suggest a roleblocker
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:48 am

Post by Errantparabola »

love vanilla cops in fact we need more of them
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Today's modern mafia consumer demands dozens, nay, hundreds of roles that are vanilla cops.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:49 am

Post by Alisae »

In post 22, Errantparabola wrote:love vanilla cops in fact we need more of them
vanilla cop vry good role
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:51 am

Post by TemporalLich »

I feel Watcher is a very powerful investigative role, kinda like it as it's not as boring as a Cop but is still a high power role
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