Too much reads, not enough strategy?

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
2 718281828459
2 718281828459
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
2 718281828459
Goon
Goon
Posts: 429
Joined: May 25, 2018
Location: Depends on your frame of reference.
Contact:

Too much reads, not enough strategy?

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:01 am

Post by 2 718281828459 »

I've returned, perhaps briefly, from an almost exactly two-year retirement from MafiaScum. My time was marked by some conflict and disappointment, in part because I
lost 5 out of 5 games
(actually, one of them I was
lynched
voted out day 1 as town, but then town later won as a mafia member conceded; the other 4 were actual losses) and in part because it seemed like the games I was playing were almost exclusively about trying to "read" people based on the quality of their posts. What I had really wanted was a game with more detailed strategy and discovery that could unfold over extended time, giving players the chance to come up with plans and alibis (and poke holes in them) and find interactions between different roles and rules. Of course I understand that intuition and "reads" have to be part of the game (otherwise it would be unfair to scum), but in basically every game I played, it seemed like the only "plans" were as simple as "ok, this player is confirmed town, so out of the remaining 4 players,
lynch
vote out the two who are scummiest". (Eventually I ran off to MishMash, with mixed success. My last post was on 2019-01-05.)

Of course, I also realize that I played four Newbie games, which are specifically designed to be simple. It is entirely possible that I simply missed the more involved games and just had bad luck with the one Micro that I did try. Are there more strategic games that regularly get played, or has the culture of MafiaScum decided that it likes either "reads" or pure chaos the best and this just isn't the site for me?
Retired Account
. I have no replacement.

After 2 years (almost exactly!) of inactivity I am giving MafiaScum a second chance...

Nah. I'm gone. Again.
User avatar
Something_Smart
Something_Smart
He/him
Somewhat_Balanced
User avatar
User avatar
Something_Smart
He/him
Somewhat_Balanced
Somewhat_Balanced
Posts: 23121
Joined: November 17, 2015
Pronoun: He/him
Location: Upstate New York

Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:03 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I think the latter. The long deadlines and reading skill of the players mean that games have to be balanced with reads in mind.

What you're looking for sounds more like Town of Salem, which is primarily a mechanical puzzle. ToS works because the deadlines are too short to really get any reads.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
User avatar
Gypyx
Gypyx
She/Her
Virtute Ex Machina
User avatar
User avatar
Gypyx
She/Her
Virtute Ex Machina
Virtute Ex Machina
Posts: 7665
Joined: March 25, 2020
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: France

Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:22 am

Post by Gypyx »

the theme queue would probably be better for you yeah, but we're still heavily read based there so it's up to you i think
White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (4/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !

bottom text
User avatar
2 718281828459
2 718281828459
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
2 718281828459
Goon
Goon
Posts: 429
Joined: May 25, 2018
Location: Depends on your frame of reference.
Contact:

Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:22 am

Post by 2 718281828459 »

SS: Although isn't Town of Salem on the time scale of minutes? If so, I would have the opposite problem because there would not be time for detailed strategies.
Gypyx: Hmm, well, I'll see if any interesting setups come up. Right now they all look rather bland.
Retired Account
. I have no replacement.

After 2 years (almost exactly!) of inactivity I am giving MafiaScum a second chance...

Nah. I'm gone. Again.
User avatar
OkaPoka
OkaPoka
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
OkaPoka
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 17300
Joined: March 28, 2014

Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:27 am

Post by OkaPoka »

What you are describing is a desire for the mech-play aspect of playing mafia (in contrast to the social/dayplay/reads aspect of mafia). I will say this site does have a preference to the latter but it doesn't mean the former does not exist.

The thing about mechanical play is that often times, heavy mechanical play setups can devolve at worst into (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Dethy) dethy setups where the game becomes a flow chart of sorts. This isn't fun for anyone because there is no variance of gameplay or real skill involved. Setups tend to avoid this.

Another way to have heavier mechanical setups is to rely on nightplay and power roles to spice things up, but the issue here is you need to be the power-role user to engage in the mechanical aspect of the game, and to engage in these mechanical plays does require the social element of forming reads, but you don't necessarily need to do so collaboratively. However I will add that it is possible to engage in mechanical aspect as a non-power role, but this is highly dangerous and requires fakeclaiming and gambits that need lots and lots of experience and skill to pull off, and even if you have the qualities it can go horribly wrong and very rarely is the right play. You find these type of closed setups in the normal queue mainly, but I will say that site balance dictates that nightplay and therefore mechanical play should never determine the outcome of the game and once again reads needs to come out ontop.

semi open suck.

There are open setups that have mechanical play through power roles as well, and the emphasis there is to play around by protecting these power roles. Then you have the absolutely chaotic setups with everyone having power roles, look for Idea games, UPicks, Role Madness for setups where everyone has some power role and you will eventually have to engage in forming a plan in stringing everyone's power role actions to solve the game. These setups are wild, but arguably its about trusting reads again, because these setups are the easiest to fakeclaim in so once again you have to find the scummiest players blah blah blah.

Now, it's hard to avoid the dichotomy of voting out who the scummiest is, but there are certainly setups that alter the elimination mechanic or have some public mechanic that is so impactful, you have to engage in a different type of thinking. For example, FakeGod mods these dance games that require people to pair up and then eliminate the pairs with only one nightkill, and what results in these setups is its about finding the top town pairs, a different type of mechanical play that requires townhunting and figuring out optimal pairs, but once again this requires "reads" and unfortunately for some, a lot of experience with the playerlist because meta analysis is very prevalent in these type of setups. Of course it would be helpful if you could catch the next time he runs an anonymous alt dance game in the large theme queue.

Some other setups that had strategy in them I have played where viewtopic.php?f=56&t=81030 (Baton Pass) and viewtopic.php?f=56&t=82018 (Titus vs Alisae). These games had such a warp to them, but for these heavy dayplay based mechanical setups, optimal solutions aren't necessarily a collabrative thing and are very vulnerable to quarterbacking, where one person dictatorially controls the game. I personally find it very interesting to play in these "dictator" style games because its a very diferent dynamic but most people find these games to be annoying and toxic. Titus vs Alisae was a draft setup, so there was the element of figuring out who scum drafted onto their team, but the game was only made interesting because there were a lot of competent scum players in the playerlist so we had to lean a bit on associatives and draft spec and coming up with nightplay (only made possible by the setup having a town treestump) than just culling bottom up.

What I'm kinda saying is you won't find games on this site that are divorced from reads, hell 99% of games on this site are focused on the reads aspect of the game, because it's bad design and boring if you focus on mechanical play and divorce yourself from the social aspect of forming reads etc. However there are plenty of setups if you look for them that have the option to be reads + strategy, of course the more you focus on strategy, the more other issues appear, but they exist and can be fun. But, setups that are reads + strategy and still highly focused on dayplay require experience to be more enjoyable and a very good playerlist of players who can play scum well enough not to roll over and die (and of course a general consensus that scum won't roll over and die), then you have to lean into other aspects outside of reads. But the coming up with plans in these playerlists and dayplay setups might not be your cup of tea either, its less about correct night actions and more about building consensus in a stubborn world and finding pre-flip associations so you strategically flip for teams rather than going bottoms up. But they exist, large themes are your best bet for these type of setups. But it does take a bit of site experience to find playerlists that have so many players that are willing to put up a fight and don't have obvious tells so you can get into the meat of the game and are forced to lean on other aspects of the game than going bottom up to win, since bottom up can't beat good scum players who are sitting at the top.
User avatar
Something_Smart
Something_Smart
He/him
Somewhat_Balanced
User avatar
User avatar
Something_Smart
He/him
Somewhat_Balanced
Somewhat_Balanced
Posts: 23121
Joined: November 17, 2015
Pronoun: He/him
Location: Upstate New York

Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:29 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Yeah, but that's part of what keeps it balanced-- if people had plenty of time to talk through things, then the puzzles would be much easier to work out, and people would naturally start using reads. I can vouch that it definitely is possible to do pretty elaborate plays from both sides in ToS, though it does require developing an ability to process things quickly.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
User avatar
BBmolla
BBmolla
Open Book
User avatar
User avatar
BBmolla
Open Book
Open Book
Posts: 24301
Joined: May 29, 2011

Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:09 pm

Post by BBmolla »

Role Madness games require a different sort of balance. The sort of game you're describing is one where scum can very easily get caught in an unavoidable lie, which means games need to compensate by adding more mafia.

basically though this site focuses on dayplay, so you're unlikely to find that here.

Mech solving games almost always just result in bad fake claims leading to town victories in my experience.
Come see me in the Great American Melodrama in Oceano
User avatar
Albert B. Rampage
Albert B. Rampage
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Albert B. Rampage
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 27261
Joined: April 8, 2007
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:15 pm

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

In post 4, OkaPoka wrote:What you are describing is a desire for the mech-play aspect of playing mafia (in contrast to the social/dayplay/reads aspect of mafia). I will say this site does have a preference to the latter but it doesn't mean the former does not exist.

The thing about mechanical play is that often times, heavy mechanical play setups can devolve at worst into (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Dethy) dethy setups where the game becomes a flow chart of sorts. This isn't fun for anyone because there is no variance of gameplay or real skill involved. Setups tend to avoid this.

Another way to have heavier mechanical setups is to rely on nightplay and power roles to spice things up, but the issue here is you need to be the power-role user to engage in the mechanical aspect of the game, and to engage in these mechanical plays does require the social element of forming reads, but you don't necessarily need to do so collaboratively. However I will add that it is possible to engage in mechanical aspect as a non-power role, but this is highly dangerous and requires fakeclaiming and gambits that need lots and lots of experience and skill to pull off, and even if you have the qualities it can go horribly wrong and very rarely is the right play. You find these type of closed setups in the normal queue mainly, but I will say that site balance dictates that nightplay and therefore mechanical play should never determine the outcome of the game and once again reads needs to come out ontop.

semi open suck.

There are open setups that have mechanical play through power roles as well, and the emphasis there is to play around by protecting these power roles. Then you have the absolutely chaotic setups with everyone having power roles, look for Idea games, UPicks, Role Madness for setups where everyone has some power role and you will eventually have to engage in forming a plan in stringing everyone's power role actions to solve the game. These setups are wild, but arguably its about trusting reads again, because these setups are the easiest to fakeclaim in so once again you have to find the scummiest players blah blah blah.

Now, it's hard to avoid the dichotomy of voting out who the scummiest is, but there are certainly setups that alter the elimination mechanic or have some public mechanic that is so impactful, you have to engage in a different type of thinking. For example, FakeGod mods these dance games that require people to pair up and then eliminate the pairs with only one nightkill, and what results in these setups is its about finding the top town pairs, a different type of mechanical play that requires townhunting and figuring out optimal pairs, but once again this requires "reads" and unfortunately for some, a lot of experience with the playerlist because meta analysis is very prevalent in these type of setups. Of course it would be helpful if you could catch the next time he runs an anonymous alt dance game in the large theme queue.

Some other setups that had strategy in them I have played where viewtopic.php?f=56&t=81030 (Baton Pass) and viewtopic.php?f=56&t=82018 (Titus vs Alisae). These games had such a warp to them, but for these heavy dayplay based mechanical setups, optimal solutions aren't necessarily a collabrative thing and are very vulnerable to quarterbacking, where one person dictatorially controls the game. I personally find it very interesting to play in these "dictator" style games because its a very diferent dynamic but most people find these games to be annoying and toxic. Titus vs Alisae was a draft setup, so there was the element of figuring out who scum drafted onto their team, but the game was only made interesting because there were a lot of competent scum players in the playerlist so we had to lean a bit on associatives and draft spec and coming up with nightplay (only made possible by the setup having a town treestump) than just culling bottom up.

What I'm kinda saying is you won't find games on this site that are divorced from reads, hell 99% of games on this site are focused on the reads aspect of the game, because it's bad design and boring if you focus on mechanical play and divorce yourself from the social aspect of forming reads etc. However there are plenty of setups if you look for them that have the option to be reads + strategy, of course the more you focus on strategy, the more other issues appear, but they exist and can be fun. But, setups that are reads + strategy and still highly focused on dayplay require experience to be more enjoyable and a very good playerlist of players who can play scum well enough not to roll over and die (and of course a general consensus that scum won't roll over and die), then you have to lean into other aspects outside of reads. But the coming up with plans in these playerlists and dayplay setups might not be your cup of tea either, its less about correct night actions and more about building consensus in a stubborn world and finding pre-flip associations so you strategically flip for teams rather than going bottoms up. But they exist, large themes are your best bet for these type of setups. But it does take a bit of site experience to find playerlists that have so many players that are willing to put up a fight and don't have obvious tells so you can get into the meat of the game and are forced to lean on other aspects of the game than going bottom up to win, since bottom up can't beat good scum players who are sitting at the top.
Quality post lol
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
User avatar
Awoo
Awoo
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Awoo
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1096
Joined: September 1, 2017
Location: lmao city

Post Post #8 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:22 pm

Post by Awoo »

In post 6, BBmolla wrote: Mech solving games almost always just result in bad fake claims leading to town victories in my experience.
I think this happens because the people who are inclined towards playing mech solving games are terrible fakeclaimers. Because when I show up with my caps lock and 1.2k WPM insisting I'm the real cop, all the kiddies believe me and learn nothing from the experience when they lose.
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”