Open Draft Mafia

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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:08 pm

Post by Ythan »

This reminds me of that one where you get two or three roles at game start and choose one and everyone gets to see the ones you didn't pick.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:21 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

New tagline for greatest idea players: If you like picking stuff, what if I told you there was a setup where you get to pick stuff 5 times?
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:01 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 26, MURDERCAT wrote:New tagline for greatest idea players: If you like picking stuff, what if I told you there was a setup where you get to pick stuff 5 times?
Greatest Draft Idea Mafia:

At the beginning of the game you get three draft packs that have attached alignments. You pick one to be your alignment, one to be your draft pack, and one to discard face up. Every draft pack is generated separately so repeats are possible and setups without an appropriate number of scum are rerolled.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:02 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

We never stopped to think if we should
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:05 pm

Post by Jingle »

Also every third day (RL day, not in game day) you replace a player at random.
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:06 pm

Post by Infinity 324 »

Also if there aren't enough scum players they get to draft more partners
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:22 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

Also, in terms of balance, I think it's worth pointing out that diffusion of power seems to be scum sided.
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:30 pm

Post by Jingle »

Aight, looking at this now:

Watcher is disproportionately powerful for town on late days. Scum virtually has to pick those roles early and town never will, which I think is a flaw. Thus I think N4 and 5 watcher should be nixed.

Neighbor needs to be clarified as to whether it adds you to an established neighborhood and whether all of the neighborhoods are linked. It also needs to be clarified whether the people in said hood are noted at the beginning of the hood or not. Normally I think that's a QOL choice that should be a yes, but specifically for this setup there is a scum utility in secretly being part of the neighbor thread. I don't think 5 Neighbors is a particularly good use of slots either. I think 3 Neighbors who all are added to a Neighborhood that exists from the beginning of the game is fine.

IIRC, the original setup had the nightkill as multitasking by default, is that unchanged?

N3/4/5 Cop is an odd choice thematically, but I assume it's to allow the Godfather time to be chosen. I think I would suggest making the 5 a novice instead (can't be used the night after it's chosen) because a N5 cop is probably going to be pretty easy to play around. Same with the N5 Gsmith, although I don't think I'd double up on what it's turned into. Amnesiac or Delayed seem like decent options.

Doctor probably doesn't need to be gated so harshly, and it should be made explicit whether it turns you into a Gsmith godfather and how long that lasts. Also, if someone drafts vig and doctor and is checked by a Gsmith, does that return a guilty?

MD/FV/Checker/RC/RB all have potential to mix in alternative gates. Odd night FV or Complex Checker or Announcing MD.

Ascetic can probably be buffed to Commuter.

Framer can probably be buffed to affect all investigations. (An investigative targeting your target receives the most damning result: I.E. can kill for gunsmiths or visited scumkill for trackers.)

I would like to see detective and psychiatrist added in some form, possibly as simply as 1 shot versions.

Neighborizer could replace neighbor or vanilla slots as it's a 0 utility role that is net fun for a lot of people and will naturally gravitate to those people who enjoy hoods.
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:34 pm

Post by Jingle »

Do you want suggestions for alternative packs here MC, or are we waiting to see if the vanilla version garners enough interest first?
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:35 pm

Post by Infinity 324 »

I'd definitely play this btw
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:37 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

In post 33, Jingle wrote:Do you want suggestions for alternative packs here MC, or are we waiting to see if the vanilla version garners enough interest first?
Will look through your other post in a bit but definitely go for it, seems like there is interest
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:38 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

In post 32, Jingle wrote: Watcher is disproportionately powerful for town on late days. Scum virtually has to pick those roles early and town never will, which I think is a flaw. Thus I think N4 and 5 watcher should be nixed.
Replaced with 1-shot Detective and 1-shot Psychologist for now.
In post 32, Jingle wrote: Neighbor needs to be clarified as to whether it adds you to an established neighborhood and whether all of the neighborhoods are linked. It also needs to be clarified whether the people in said hood are noted at the beginning of the hood or not. Normally I think that's a QOL choice that should be a yes, but specifically for this setup there is a scum utility in secretly being part of the neighbor thread. I don't think 5 Neighbors is a particularly good use of slots either. I think 3 Neighbors who all are added to a Neighborhood that exists from the beginning of the game is fine.
Neighborhood is created on game start and players are added when it is chosen from a pack (that was the idea at least). I think there is no mod announcement when a player is added to the hood, they can post or not if they choose (seems more fun). Happy to drop the number down if there's good replacements, will come back to this.
In post 32, Jingle wrote: IIRC, the original setup had the nightkill as multitasking by default, is that unchanged?
@Gypyx
can you confirm, after a brief look I couldn't find it. But yes, that is the case here, factional nightkill can be performed alongside pack actions.
In post 32, Jingle wrote: N3/4/5 Cop is an odd choice thematically, but I assume it's to allow the Godfather time to be chosen. I think I would suggest making the 5 a novice instead (can't be used the night after it's chosen) because a N5 cop is probably going to be pretty easy to play around. Same with the N5 Gsmith, although I don't think I'd double up on what it's turned into. Amnesiac or Delayed seem like decent options.
Time for scum to play around it, also it forces trade offs in decision making. If there is N1 cop you always take it, but do you take N3 cop on N1? You make sure scum doesn't burn it but you also might die before you use it and maybe that N1 tracker has utility now? Agreed about N5 Cop and gsmith, changed to novice and delayed.
In post 32, Jingle wrote: Doctor probably doesn't need to be gated so harshly, and it should be made explicit whether it turns you into a Gsmith godfather and how long that lasts. Also, if someone drafts vig and doctor and is checked by a Gsmith, does that return a guilty?
Oh good one. Docs are now even and odd night, plus I added a couple of 2-shot docs to replace 2 of the neighbors. I think doctor makes you a gsmith godfather, unless you are a vig as that seems like the most fun. But if that's awful we could not do that.
In post 32, Jingle wrote: MD/FV/Checker/RC/RB all have potential to mix in alternative gates. Odd night FV or Complex Checker or Announcing MD.
Yeah, I have added in random gates that I think are interesting or funny, including Self Checker, which I think is
really
funny.
In post 32, Jingle wrote: Ascetic can probably be buffed to Commuter.
I put both in /shrug
In post 32, Jingle wrote: Framer can probably be buffed to affect all investigations. (An investigative targeting your target receives the most damning result: I.E. can kill for gunsmiths or visited scumkill for trackers.)
Is there a name for this? Gunna call it universal framer if not.
In post 32, Jingle wrote: I would like to see detective and psychiatrist added in some form, possibly as simply as 1 shot versions.
Used to replace the watchers.
In post 32, Jingle wrote: Neighborizer could replace neighbor or vanilla slots as it's a 0 utility role that is net fun for a lot of people and will naturally gravitate to those people who enjoy hoods.
I was thinking that, but wondered if it was better in a booster. But now that 2 of the neighbors have been removed, I will add it in. I'm guessing you are imagining this creating a different hood from the other one?
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:41 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

Also Jingle, is it balanced?
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:34 pm

Post by Isis »

This setup seems like it could replace normals for me in a way C9++ never could.


Technically it should be in open setup discussion
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:35 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

:O

I considered putting it there but grand idea isn't so I put it here too
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:38 pm

Post by Isis »

Grand Idea is not an open setup because the randomization isn't perfectly knowable and divorced from mod discretion. Mods use Grand Idea to generate setups in different ways. Micc's Greater Idea generates a few setups and uses mod discretion to pick a good one so it also is not truly an open setup. This setup is truly open, because the moderator follows an exact algorithm in a desultory manner, so every player can reconstruct the probability of each possible outcome without perfect knowledge of the moderator's idiosyncracies.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:44 pm

Post by Isis »

Aren't you the one who said in discord that a faction shouldn't lose for making a play that's mechanically correct 98% of the time? oh wait that was infinity.

Anyways. I really don't like 98% sanity cops at all.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:46 pm

Post by Ythan »

Many specific grand idea roles require moderator discretion even.
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:56 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

You are welcome to move it if you have the power!

I did say something similar in the cop is a terrible role thread a while back, but here I think the cop shots have enough counterplay to be interesting (personally).
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:28 pm

Post by Gypyx »

In post 36, MURDERCAT wrote:@Gypyx can you confirm, after a brief look I couldn't find it. But yes, that is the case here, factional nightkill can be performed alongside pack actions.
correct !
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:25 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 37, MURDERCAT wrote:Also Jingle, is it balanced?
I don't know that this is a setup where someone can definitively say it's balanced. It depends too much on how the packs are randomized.

I think as it is your list is within the realm of playable (although if people have suggestions I encourage them to voice them), and I don't see any particular interactions that could break the game on their own, but there are simply too many moving parts and too many scenarios to account for to ever go "Yup, this is a balanced setup." It's kind of like how GIdea games are inherently not guaranteed to be balanced, but are still a ton of fun for people who shouldn't be policy limmed D1.
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:34 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

If you, Isis and Gypyx all think it looks playable, that's good enough for me! Getting started on a wiki page tomorrow! Also I rerolled the example base setup if anyone wants to reexamine for balance.

In the meantime, pack discussion?

Spoiler: Scum Power Booster
  1. Godfather
  2. 1-shot Universal Framer
  3. 1-shot Universal Framer
  4. 1-shot Activated Strongman
  5. 1-shot Activated Strongman
  6. 1-shot Activated Ascetic
  7. 1-shot Activated Ascetic
  8. 1-shot Activated Ninja
  9. 1-shot Activated Ninja
  10. 1-shot Rolecop
  11. 1-shot Rolecop
  12. 1-shot Roleblocker
  13. 1-shot Roleblocker


Spoiler: Ice Cream Booster
  1. Vanilla
  2. Vanilla
  3. Vanilla
  4. Vanilla
  5. Vanilla
  6. Vanilla Cop
  7. 2-shot Neapolitan
  8. 2-shot Neapolitan
  9. Even-Night Neapolitan
  10. Odd-Night Neapolitan
  11. 2-shot Announcing Vanillaiser
  12. 2-shot Announcing Vanillaiser
  13. D3 Innocent Child


Spoiler: Friendly Neighborhood Booster Pack
  1. Neighbor
  2. Neighbor
  3. Neighbor
  4. 1-shot Neighborizer
  5. 1-shot Neighborizer
  6. 1-shot Friendly Neighbor
  7. 1-shot Friendly Neighbor
  8. Mailman
  9. Mailman
  10. Even-Night Babysitter
  11. Odd-Night Babysitter
  12. 3-shot Fruit Vendor
  13. D3 Innocent Child


Spoiler: Pack Shenanigans Booster
  1. 2-Shot Pack Swapper (you get the pack of the player you swap with at the start of the next night)
  2. Even-Night Pack Swapper
  3. Odd-Night Pack Swapper
  4. 3-Shot Pack Thief (steal a random role from a pack, replace it with vanilla; received at start of next night)
  5. Even-Night Pack Thief
  6. Odd-Night Pack Thief
  7. 2-Shot Pack Investigator (learn the contents of a players pack)
  8. Even-Night Pack Investigator
  9. Odd-Night Pack Investigator
  10. 2-Shot Draft Blocker (Prevents a player from receiving the role they pick the following night [it is still removed from the pack])
  11. Even-Night Draft Blocker
  12. Odd-Night Draft Blocker
  13. 1-Shot Pack Randomizer (reshuffle all packs for the following night)
Last edited by MURDERCAT on Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:36 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

Modifiers could probably be more interesting, but just getting some ideas out there
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:39 pm

Post by Gypyx »

draft roleblocker could be a thing also? like, you prevent someone from getting their role

otherwise those are decent ideas, expect the ice cream pack, seriously, don't, you've seen how it all went the first time lol
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:29 am

Post by MURDERCAT »

Draft roleblocker is great, added

Ice Cream Booster is my favorite theme though lol
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