Term Replacement: "Sanity"

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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:16 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 74, Ythan wrote:
In post 70, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:But even the arguments for changing “suicide bomber” have ignored the possibility of it being offensive to Muslims, which imo would be a much better argument for changing that term than the reasons currently given (that said, I am not opposed to it being changed to “self-bomber”, which would address both concerns), yet I have not even heard that being offered up as a possible reason but that one I would support because it’s basis is comparable to the reasoning for changing “lynch”.
I was also wondering when someone was gonna bring that up. Maybe it goes without saying? I apparently felt so.
I’m very surprised it wasn’t but I am in favour of changing it for that reason alone.
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:22 pm

Post by Ythan »

Same I also find that angle pretty compelling.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:11 pm

Post by KittyTacky »

Honestly? Me too. I can actually see a Muslim get offended over this, unlike the other argument.

As I said in the other thread it would be better as a modifier applied to a vig.
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:36 am

Post by samantha97 »

I think it's actually more offensive to tie suicide bombers to muslims

it's kind of like being so antiracist you loop back around to racist lol (not calling it racist, just an example)
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:55 am

Post by TemporalLich »

yeah that's another reason to term replace SD-bombers (I didn't want to mention it because I felt mentioning it would itself be offensive)

and yeah I agree with samantha - but that doesn't mean SD-bomber shouldn't be term replaced (in fact that's a point toward term-replacing SD-bomber)
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:09 am

Post by T-Bone »

In post 71, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 17, T-Bone wrote:These questions are worthwhile to ask, so I ask that people aren't dismissive when someone brings up an idea for a term replacement. Lynch was long overdue, so long, that we were among the last major sites to get rid of it. It's worth asking these questions because we were so late on that change. It doesn't mean that everything or anything will be replaced, but the conversations are worthwhile.
I think the framing of these discussions would definitely help with that. Instead of making a thread suggesting we replace roles, perhaps ask if the term is actually problematic, offensive and harmful and if it’s desirable to change it or not. I think that would probably merit a much better response and keep us both sensitive and practical.
Well I think it's unfair to expect everyone to frame conversations with 100% perfection. If it helps, the person who makes the final decision is me on changes to the wiki right now. So anyone else making an OP asking 'should XYZ be changed?' doesn't have the same decision making power that I and the other listmods do.

So, people should feel pretty safe to bring these things up, even if they don't phrase it perfectly. It's okay.

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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:20 am

Post by Ythan »

In post 77, KittyTacky wrote:Honestly? Me too. I can actually see a Muslim get offended over this, unlike the other argument.

As I said in the other thread it would be better as a modifier applied to a vig.
Oh were you the one who said that
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:39 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 80, T-Bone wrote:
In post 71, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 17, T-Bone wrote:These questions are worthwhile to ask, so I ask that people aren't dismissive when someone brings up an idea for a term replacement. Lynch was long overdue, so long, that we were among the last major sites to get rid of it. It's worth asking these questions because we were so late on that change. It doesn't mean that everything or anything will be replaced, but the conversations are worthwhile.
I think the framing of these discussions would definitely help with that. Instead of making a thread suggesting we replace roles, perhaps ask if the term is actually problematic, offensive and harmful and if it’s desirable to change it or not. I think that would probably merit a much better response and keep us both sensitive and practical.
Well I think it's unfair to expect everyone to frame conversations with 100% perfection. If it helps, the person who makes the final decision is me on changes to the wiki right now. So anyone else making an OP asking 'should XYZ be changed?' doesn't have the same decision making power that I and the other listmods do.

So, people should feel pretty safe to bring these things up, even if they don't phrase it perfectly. It's okay.

Good time to remind that we have a volunteer team for the MafiaWiki. If you want to help, there's a usergroup you can request to join called Wiki Tiki Tavi or you can PM me (there's also a discord channel for wiki stuff).
Just making suggestions more than passing judgement.
Last edited by Nancy Drew 39 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:48 am

Post by Isis »

These conversations are important. While not all mafia flavor is candy and roses to begin with, flavor that is offensive to certain groups of people can isolate players from the game. These reviews are happening across society as a whole, with games like magic the gathering (the source of our own Ascetic, role banning cards insensitive to vulnerable groups a year ago.

The ship has sailed on whether community prerogatives to move to the most inclusive available metaphors for mafia are overcosted transitions as though it were a matter of principle. Starting with the lunch change, we have decided they are not. In some cases, after discussion (
especially
discussion including the voices of groups that may be at issue), some terms may be determined to not truly convey disrespect and be reasonable to retain for the benefit of tradition and the usefulness of the metaphor. In other cases we will change terms so that mafia can be the most inclusive as possible, the way a game that can be played with five people of any origin and no equipment at all ought to be.

Civil discussion about whether terms are offensive or how high a transitional cost are are welcome analyses. Suggesting anything fundamentally offensive could nonetheless persist due to the idea mafia has an inalienable right to be "edgy" is unproductive at best.
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:08 pm

Post by KittyTacky »

In post 81, Ythan wrote:
In post 77, KittyTacky wrote:Honestly? Me too. I can actually see a Muslim get offended over this, unlike the other argument.

As I said in the other thread it would be better as a modifier applied to a vig.
Oh were you the one who said that
Someone else also did. But I did say it would be better as a "Sacrificial" modifier.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:14 am

Post by TemporalLich »

Rerailing the thread back to it's intended topic:

Should the cop sanities be changed to reliabilities? (e.g. a cop Role PM saying "Your reliability is not guaranteed." instead of "Your sanity is not guaranteed.")

Should the doctor and roleblocker sanities continue to be referred to as such?

also, should
Paranoid
Gun Owner be renamed? (I would personally like the name Sentry or Turret for this)
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:36 am

Post by Pine »

In post 85, TemporalLich wrote:Rerailing the thread back to it's intended topic:

Should the cop sanities be changed to reliabilities? (e.g. a cop Role PM saying "Your reliability is not guaranteed." instead of "Your sanity is not guaranteed.")
Yes. This is a simple and easy fix.
Should the doctor and roleblocker sanities continue to be referred to as such?
If we're changing one, just change them all. "Sanity" should probably just be changed to "reliability," full stop.
also, should
Paranoid
Gun Owner be renamed? (I would personally like the name Sentry or Turret for this)
I am more ambivalent about this. Paranoia is less likely to trigger [citation needed] and represents the propensity for someone to shoot first and ask questions later. I do like re-flavoring it as Sentry, that would obviate the question.

Suicide can likewise be removed from our game lexicon easily and painlessly. Lovers need not go out like Romeo and Juliet; simply withdrawing into mourning or similar would achieve the same effect. The Bomber can be reflavored as the Nemesis - prepared to take out their target despite exposing themselves.

Psychologist/Psychiatrist was mentioned earlier iirc. Those ones are probably fine. They represent analyzing a person's potential to be a killer, which is a core premise of the game. Even then, alluding to the forensic nature of the investigation would circumvent any problems. Forensic investigator, FBI Agent, Major Crimes Analyst, or whatever.

The point here is that topics of sanity, self-harm, and mental health may trigger a small segment of our userbase, but A) it's a larger segment than you might think and B) when the cost of changing this is exactly zero, failing to do so would be irresponsible.
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:47 am

Post by TemporalLich »

If we are using "Reliabilities" even for Doc and Roleblocker:

(this list is for Doc and Roleblocker reliabilities/sanities, see for cop reliabilities/sanities)

Sane = Reliable
Insane = Unreliable
Paranoid = Overcorrecting
Naive = False (Quack would still work here)
Weak = Weak
CPR = CPR
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:02 am

Post by TemporalLich »

Lover simply uses "die" - this is for purely mechanical purposes, so flavor can be filled in. It would most likely be seen as dying from heartbreak however.

Bomber was pretty much decided to be renamed Exploder - though Nemesis is a good name. Bear in mind the thread for that specific term replacement is locked however.

Psychologist/Psychiatrist feel fine to me. Psychologist is the role that determines if someone is capable of killing but hasn't yet, it is the counterpart to Detective and is a Normal role. Psychiatrist is an alignment-changing role that turns a Serial Killer into a Townie.

I'd say low instead of zero especially for the "sanity" terms which only exist in Bastard games - the cost of losing design space is a cost that should not be ignored - especially for a blanket term replacement instead of simply writing out a specific problem word or idea (the design space lost to losing the L-word is negligible (note that this is not the same thing as zero, there is a cost but it's so small it doesn't matter in practice))

Though if sanity terms are known to be distressing, the benefit outweighs the cost by a lot, and if 1:1 term replacements are easily found, the cost might actually be zero.
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:23 pm

Post by KittyTacky »

Yeah nothing against "reliabilities". If someone is actually offended by current sanities then sure change it.
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:25 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

Necroing this to post a proposal for parallelizing reliabilities at the cost of having the old Insane Doctor be a Random Doctor instead of an Inverse Doctor

SanityReliabilityDefinition (investigative/non-investigative)
SaneReliableWorks as expected / works as expected
InsaneInverseOpposite result / opposite effect
ParanoidFanaticalPositive or incriminating result / extreme effect
NaiveApatheticNegative or clearing result / no effect
RandomRandomRandom result / 50% chance of reliable, otherwise inverse
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:57 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 90, TemporalLich wrote:Necroing this to post a proposal for parallelizing reliabilities at the cost of having the old Insane Doctor be a Random Doctor instead of an Inverse Doctor

SanityReliabilityDefinition (investigative/non-investigative)
SaneReliableWorks as expected / works as expected
InsaneInverseOpposite result / opposite effect
ParanoidFanaticalPositive or incriminating result / extreme effect
NaiveApatheticNegative or clearing result / no effect
RandomRandomRandom result / 50% chance of reliable, otherwise inverse
For sane you don’t need any modifier at all and for insane, I think inverse is a good choice because random doesn’t convey opposite.
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:16 am

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 91, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:For sane you don’t need any modifier at all and for insane, I think inverse is a good choice because random doesn’t convey opposite.
Sometimes you need a term for Sane. Something like "guaranteed Reliable" or some Grand Idea roles with flipping reliabilities are where a term for Sane is necessary.

Random is supposed to be 50% reliable 50% inverse.

The current Insane Doctor is defined as "has 50% chance of killing their patient instead of protecting them.". This would be called a Random Doctor under the new system, while an Inverse Doctor is a Doctor who ends up killing their patient all the time.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:38 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 92, TemporalLich wrote:
In post 91, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:For sane you don’t need any modifier at all and for insane, I think inverse is a good choice because random doesn’t convey opposite.
Sometimes you need a term for Sane. Something like "guaranteed Reliable" or some Grand Idea roles with flipping reliabilities are where a term for Sane is necessary.

Random is supposed to be 50% reliable 50% inverse.

The current Insane Doctor is defined as "has 50% chance of killing their patient instead of protecting them.". This would be called a Random Doctor under the new system, while an Inverse Doctor is a Doctor who ends up killing their patient all the time.
Okay then, how about “reliable” and “unreliable” then?
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:58 am

Post by Umlaut »

In post 90, TemporalLich wrote:Necroing this to post a proposal for parallelizing reliabilities at the cost of having the old Insane Doctor be a Random Doctor instead of an Inverse Doctor

SanityReliabilityDefinition (investigative/non-investigative)
SaneReliableWorks as expected / works as expected
InsaneInverseOpposite result / opposite effect
ParanoidFanaticalPositive or incriminating result / extreme effect
NaiveApatheticNegative or clearing result / no effect
RandomRandomRandom result / 50% chance of reliable, otherwise inverse
Naïve
is not really a mental health term as far as I know so I don't see why that one needs to be replaced. Is the idea that Apathetic and Fanatical are somehow logical opposites in a way that Naïve and Fanatical are not?
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:04 am

Post by TemporalLich »

Apathetic means you don't really care, while Fanatical means you care way too much.

Naive would mean overly trusting, and therefore fits as a logical opposite to Paranoid (overly suspicious) but not Fanatical.
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:11 pm

Post by Psyche »

I don't think "paranoid" carries mental health stigma like sane/insane does

for better consistency w the proposed changes for sane/insane though maybe other terms that don't relate game mechanics to psychological traits at all is worthwhile here
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:51 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

The current Reliabilities (not the current Sanities) suffer from a lack of parallelization (which is not the case for Sanities).

Paranoid is False Positive (always getting a positive result) for investigatives and Overcorrecting (doing too much) for non-investigatives
Naive is False Negative (always getting a negative result) for investigatives and False (not doing anything) for non-investigatives



I don't think it's a big deal to have roles named after personality traits - for Normal roles/modifiers we have Friendly Neighbor, Loyal, Disloyal, Ascetic, Compulsive, Lazy, Macho, and Indecisive.

However neither Reliable nor Inverse are personalty traits (though Reliable can be argued to be one).

Some alternate names for Fanatical / Apathetic:

Strict / Lax
Excessive / Deficient
Always Crit / Always Miss
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:08 pm

Post by Ircher »

,Strict/Lax seems like the best alternative suggested here.
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:13 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

yeah I kinda like Strict / Lax as an alternative - fanatical is a bit much but strict gets the point across

Lax is meant to be like an opposite of Strict
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