Inverse-Weak modifier needs a name

[Ythan]

Vain only makes sense to me attached to certain powers but those are probably the powers more likely to be attached to it. And I also don't have a better suggestion.

[yessiree]

penitent sounds like it fits well, but the word itself seems too much of a technical jargon, conscientious?

[Cheery Dog]

Why do you even want this modifier?

[samantha97]

Why do you even want this modifier?

I'm not him but maybe a punishment for vanillaizer/vig/other negative actions that town could have

[TemporalLich]

It's for consistency and it helps to have both parts of Sacrificial defined

[Ythan]

It's fun to iron out corner cases.

[Cheery Dog]

Why do you even want this modifier?

I'm not him but maybe a punishment for vanillaizer/vig/other negative actions that town could have

In the case of Vig we already have Desperado

[Cheery Dog]

I didn't realise that was a dayvig only though

(I also never noticed that got mentioned on page 1)

[Jingle]

I'm more interested in the case of investigative roles, tbh. Vain cop, for example, is a role that can only give one inno but functionally infinite guilties if it's targeted right, which means you don't get a gamestate where the end of the game is inevitable because of clears because of vain. It's a weaker version of weak, since you're more likely to target wrong and die early, which means sitting on the power until the late game is a much more viable strategy.

Mostly though? Design space. It doesn't really need to be normal, but having a name for a modifier like this can't really hurt anything but gives mods more recognizable tools in the toolbox when designing setups.

[Ythan]

Discussing what roles we expect to see it attached to may help. That Jingle post helped me get the vain argument.

[TemporalLich]

In the case of Vig we already have Desperado

Desperado also fails if targeting Town, unlike Vain.

Disloyal and Vain can be used to achieve the same effect.

[Jingle]

Disloyal and Vain can be used to achieve the same effect.

I don't think it can, actually, as the wiki says blocking the role stops the weak from killing it and the action would fail from the disloyal. That's an interesting interaction at the very least.

[Umlaut]

I was thinking about exactly this modifier a while ago and didn't know what to call it either. I feel like the difficulty of finding a logical converse to "Weak" reveals that Weak was always kind of a weird name for that modifier in the first place, but Vain is as good as anything (it's short and easy to remember, which probably matters more than making perfect sense does).

[Not_Mafia]

What about

corrupt(ed)

or something along the lines

wicked

,

evil

,

tainted

etc...

The idea being it is defeated by coming into contact with good

[Ircher]

I like Not_Mafia's suggestions. I think maybe Tainted would be the best out of those.

[Menalque]

I really really like Vain

[Not_Mafia]

Or

Proud

, in the deadly sins sense, I feel like that hit more directly at what vain is going for

[Jingle]

Proud works just as well as vain for me, for pretty much exactly the same reasons.

Corrupt et all all seem more like an infectious sort of thing than a specific weakness on the part of the person taking the action, but that might be a personal connotation thing so if other people like it I'm not really opposed.

[Ythan]

Corrupt et all all seem more like an infectious sort of thing than a specific weakness on the part of the person taking the action, but that might be a personal connotation thing so if other people like it I'm not really opposed.

Had the same feeling.

[TemporalLich]

Or

Proud

, in the deadly sins sense, I feel like that hit more directly at what vain is going for

Not only does that sound like a positive utility modifier, making it a negative utility modifier feels very slightly insensitive for me.

[Umlaut]

Prideful would avoid the positive connotations of Proud. But at that point I think I just like Vain better.

[samantha97]

my reservation about prideful/proud/vain is that it kind of restricts its sensicality to 'town with negative action targeting town'

but maybe that's the only kind of role that'd use it in the first place

[Jingle]

I disagree. I think that being willing to trade your own life for a doc protect on a player is inherently a proud/vain thing too. It's a "My reads on the players/gamestate are so good that I can judge when to give up my game-life is worth it" or an "I can catch scum accurately the majority of the time" regardless of whether the role you have is a role that wants to target town or scum.

I also don't think the modifier is inherently negative utility (weak assuredly isn't, it's a very strong investigative).

[samantha97]

I disagree. I think that being willing to trade your own life for a doc protect on a player is inherently a proud/vain thing too. It's a "My reads on the players/gamestate are so good that I can judge when to give up my game-life is worth it" or an "I can catch scum accurately the majority of the time" regardless of whether the role you have is a role that wants to target town or scum.

ic

I was looking at it from the angle of them killing themselves from having made a bad mistake

[Jingle]

I see the modifier as along the lines of a vig shot. In using it, you are inherently risking the death of someone of your faction. I’m not saying that’s a bad choice, but it does seem like a prideful or vain thing to do, even when it’s objectively the right call.

I’m not sure that others have to see it the same way, that’s just where I’m coming from when I say I like proud or vain for the name.