Do gendered role names make sense?

[TemporalLich]

I am mostly talking about King and Prince here, though Mailman, Strongman, and Godfather technically count as well.

Prince was my hasty term replacement for L-wordproof (which was taken from One Night Ultimate Werewolf), and I don't feel it's a good role name.

King is a very established role in the Kingmaker variant.



Gender does not matter (and should not matter - otherwise the mod is both sexist and a bad mod) in rands, does it follow that it should not matter in role cards or is the player/character barrier strong enough for this to be a non-issue?

For King the gender-neutral term is Monarch. For Prince the gender-neutral term is Heir. For Mailman we have Courier. Strongman and Godfather don't really have good gender-neutral name equivalents however.

[joqiza]

I've seen "Strongarm" used as a substitute for "Strongman."

[Infinity 324]

These are good suggestions, godfather probably has to stay as is

[TemporalLich]

I've seen "Strongarm" used as a substitute for "Strongman."

Strongarm to me means to use physical force for coercion.

These are good suggestions, godfather probably has to stay as is

yeah Godfather is kinda a movie name.

I think Mafia Boss (Don actually would not work for this purpose believe it or not) could work if Godfather tends to be seen as misgendering however.

[Infinity 324]

Maybe in themes we can use fem or androgynous images to go with the role. I think any other term is just too different from godfather but maybe we can think of godfathers as not strictly male

[Isis]

Lots of board games assign genders to different abilities in a haphazard way with no clear pattern and I think that's fine. You can roleplay outside of your own gender a little bit.

However, the way gender is assigned to mafia roles seems kind of patterned and is hard not to view as having some patriarchal undertones.

It's unfortunate if godfather seems like the one that absolutely can't change since it's an extremely powerful role and that makes it kind of a glass ceiling.

[TemporalLich]

We could use Eliminateproof for the former L-wordproof if you want something ending in -proof instead of a elimination term agnostic name

Godfather is the one that does have a literal gender-neutral version (Godparent) but it will ruin the movie reference and honestly Mafia Boss makes more sense (or if it doesn't need to be seen as the big leader of it all, Caporegime). I would not consider Godfather absolutely locked into the current name especially considering Godfather was deNormalized.

And yeah it kinda feels patriarchal but I'm more considering removing gendered role names to avoid the likelihood of people feeling misgendered by their Role PM.

[Ircher]

I dunno, eliminateproof seems really bland and it's also really long to type. Elimproof is probably slightly better.

[TemporalLich]

Hammerproof would not be perfectly ideal as that implies hammer votes straight up don't count, but Elimproof feels abbreviated

[Isis]

eliminationproof

It's a rare role it can be long

[TemporalLich]

all I know is that I really do want to want to revisit the L-word term replacements but that's a topic for another thread.

Eliminationproof is the "proper" term replacement of L-wordproof but I'm not sure how many elimination terms are Normal and it would result in potentially having roles named Exileproof, Yeetproof, Fadeproof, Executionproof, and Blastproof in Themes at least

[joqiza]

Call it the Babbacombe

"John Babbacombe Lee was an Englishman famous for surviving three attempts to hang him for murder." ... "He became popularly known as 'the man they couldn't hang.'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Babbacombe_Lee

[Jingle]

I have legitimately never seen mailman named mailman. I've used it as messenger for years, which is probably the most descriptive way to name it regardless of the discussion of whether it should be gendered or not.

[skitter30]

i'm p sure i've *only* seen mailman as mailman, and ahve never (or at least rarely) seen messenger

[Infinity 324]

The normal role is called a mailman

[skitter30]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=79835 like this one

[Jingle]

Weird. It definitely could be a quirk of my experience, but that is my perception nonetheless.

[TemporalLich]

Messenger sounds more Normal than Courier so I prefer it

[TemporalLich]

For Strongman I feel a good solution is to modifierize it into Strong (basically Strong-Willed but not interfering with redirections - for all purposes in a Normal game Strong and Strong-Willed are the same modifier), though you'd have a Strong Goon for the 1:1 replacement (as you're modifying the factional kill).

[Ircher]

Honestly, do we need to distinguish between Strongman and strong-willed? I find it very confusing that we have two terms for two very similar but slightly different roles/modifier.

[TemporalLich]

Honestly, do we need to distinguish between Strongman and strong-willed? I find it very confusing that we have two terms for two very similar but slightly different roles/modifier.

Strongman is a role and Strong-Willed is a modifier but I can see Strong-Willed prevaling as Strongman is in the same boat as SD-Bomber, both might need term replacement but both can be expressed with modifiers. Though Strong-Willed Goon is kinda a Themey use of modifiers to modify the factional kill.

We do need a 1:1 term replacement as I highly doubt the NRG is going to let us modify the factional kill in Normal games, so Strong-Willed Goon might not be Normal anyways.

[KittyTacky]

Honestly, do we need to distinguish between Strongman and strong-willed? I find it very confusing that we have two terms for two very similar but slightly different roles/modifier.

Strongman is a role and Strong-Willed is a modifier but I can see Strong-Willed prevaling.

We do need a 1:1 term replacement as I highly doubt the NRG is going to let us modify the factional kill in Normal games, so Strong-Willed Goon might not be Normal anyways.

Isn't Ninja normal? How is it not modifying the factional kill?

[Jingle]

Strong willed actually has a functional difference as well, and is weaker as a modifier.

As a 1:1 you could just take the vig strongman term of Juggernaut.

[TemporalLich]

Isn't Ninja normal? How is it not modifying the factional kill?

Yes... and it does modify the factional kill but that's an intended feature rather than using a loophole to modify the factional kill in ways that the NRG doesn't expect.

Strong willed actually has a functional difference as well, and is weaker as a modifier.

As a 1:1 you could just take the vig strongman term of Juggernaut.

I know Strong-Willed as a

stronger

version of Strongman - unlike Strongman, Strong-Willed prevents redirects as well.

and yeah Juggernaut is a perfect term for Strongman - in fact it's already an alias of that role.

[Jingle]

I know Strong-Willed as a stronger version of Strongman - unlike Strongman, Strong-Willed prevents redirects as well.

Strong willed explicitly doesn't stop doctor saves, which is arguably more common than redirects. The salient point is that they are in fact different roles.