Do gendered role names make sense?

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
Ircher
Ircher
He / Him / His
What A Grand Idea
User avatar
User avatar
Ircher
He / Him / His
What A Grand Idea
What A Grand Idea
Posts: 15170
Joined: November 9, 2015
Pronoun: He / Him / His
Location: CST/CDT

Post Post #25 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:02 pm

Post by Ircher »

Yeah, the wiki pages makes it clearer that they are quite different, but you wouldn't realize that by their current names.

Juggernaut seems like a good replacement and would go a long way towards resolving confusion between those two roles/modifiers as well.
Links: User Page | GTKAS
Do you have questions, ideas, or feedback for the Scummies? Please pm me!
Hosting: The Grand Neighborhood [In Signups: 7/9]
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5721
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #26 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:13 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

ah well I still see Strong-Willed as explicitly shredding all forms of blocking, redirections, protection, and immunities that apply to the action (Ascetic is an immunity for non-kill actions and Rolestopper is a protective for all actions). Basically nothing short of a Commuter can interfere with the Strong-Willed action's resolution.

but "argue about the minutiae of Strong-Willed" isn't the thread topic, asking whether gendered role names make sense is.

However, the minutiae of Strong-Willed does matter if we are considering Normalizing it, if Strong-Willed doesn't pierce protections and immunities than it can't be used to modifierize Strongman.
time will end
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #27 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:26 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 25, Ircher wrote:Juggernaut seems like a good replacement and would go a long way towards resolving confusion between those two roles/modifiers as well.
Low key I would like the switch even without the gender association for that reason, as this isn’t the first time it’s come up for me. Also, to preempt accusations of knowing things, I found juggernaut by looking at the wiki page in the first place.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #28 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:30 pm

Post by Jingle »

Beloved princess, btw, could easily be shortened to just beloved as a modifier.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Infinity 324
Infinity 324
they (pl.)
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Infinity 324
they (pl.)
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 18337
Joined: April 7, 2013
Pronoun: they (pl.)
Contact:

Post Post #29 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:30 pm

Post by Infinity 324 »

Jingle wrote:
In post 25, Ircher wrote:Juggernaut seems like a good replacement and would go a long way towards resolving confusion between those two roles/modifiers as well.
Low key I would like the switch even without the gender association for that reason, as this isn’t the first time it’s come up for me. Also, to preempt accusations of knowing things, I found juggernaut by looking at the wiki page in the first place.
That's what someone who knows things would say
Show
new GTKAS

<3 you are valid

plural system, we may or may not sign
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5721
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #30 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:33 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 28, Jingle wrote:Beloved princess, btw, could easily be shortened to just beloved as a modifier.
oh yeah I forgot that role exists

but yeah that easily works, Beloved Townie makes perfect sense.
time will end
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #31 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:36 pm

Post by Jingle »

/inb4 someone makes a beloved goon setup.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Ythan
Ythan
She
Welcome to the Haystack
User avatar
User avatar
Ythan
She
Welcome to the Haystack
Welcome to the Haystack
Posts: 15148
Joined: August 11, 2009
Pronoun: She

Post Post #32 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:45 pm

Post by Ythan »

I'm sure scum BP has been done before.

I mean ego
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #33 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:51 pm

Post by Jingle »

^ another solid point in favor of changing beloved princess: they’re usually not bulletproof.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #34 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:54 pm

Post by Jingle »

I feel like most of the gendered mafia terms are either rare or poorly named enough that the answer to “Should we change them” can be answered with yes.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5721
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #35 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:08 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 34, Jingle wrote:I feel like most of the gendered mafia terms are either rare or poorly named enough that the answer to “Should we change them” can be answered with yes.
Any specific instances of "no" or "I don't know"?

I would think Kingmaker (as in both the role and the scenario) might be the hardest to properly term replace as it's both common and not common.

A list of gendered role names in the wiki:

Beloved Princess
Dreaming God (may or may not be gendered)
Godfather
Hero (again, may or may not be gendered)
Huntsman
Judas (this one is going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun)
King
Kingmaker
(Normal role) Macho (this one gets in this list via being a word that means masculine)
(Normal role) Mailman
Phantom Queen
Priest (yet again, may or may not be gendered)
Prince
Saulus (this one is also going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun)
(Normal role) Strongman
Zombie Lord (this one is a stretch)


Monk may also be considered may or may not be gendered
time will end
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #36 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:10 pm

Post by Jingle »

Beloved Princess Beloved as modifier frees up design space, net positive change.
Dreaming God Could easily be shortened to Dreamer, and the role comes up very rarely anyway.
Godfather might be an exception as a movie reference.
Hero (again, may or may not be gendered) personally I don’t see this as a gendered role, so...
Huntsman already has a name: Elite Bodyguard
Judas (this one is going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun) possible exception as a historical reference, but also just never comes up.
King I don’t know, tbh. Monarch seems like a fine replacement if a replacement is desired.
Kingmaker I think the game theory aspect and gender neutrality of this one make it fine to leave as is?
(Normal role) Macho (this one gets in this list via being a word that means masculine) this and king are probably the most likely to need changing on the basis of being offensive, but I don’t know what we’d change it to.
(Normal role) Mailman I think messenger describes the role better in the first place, but it’s not a hill I’d die on.
Phantom Queen what even is this? Like... has it been used more than once?
Priest (yet again, may or may not be gendered) like hero, I see this as a gender less term, although I am not a final arbiter by any means
Prince barely fits the role, stopgap in the first place
Saulus (this one is also going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun) see Judas
(Normal role) Strongman I support changing this to differentiate between it and strong willed and juggernaut already works as a replacement.
Zombie Lord (this one is a stretch) see phantom queen
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Gypyx
Gypyx
She/Her
Virtute Ex Machina
User avatar
User avatar
Gypyx
She/Her
Virtute Ex Machina
Virtute Ex Machina
Posts: 7272
Joined: March 25, 2020
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: France

Post Post #37 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:33 pm

Post by Gypyx »

Dreaming God -> Dreaming Deity
I'm the one who made Elite Bodyguard up, but it has a nice ring to it i think
Macho -> Hemophiliac?
The female verions of Preist is Priestress so yeah, this is indeed gendered

otherwise yeah, phantom queen / zombie lord probably shouldn't be on the wiki straight up
bottom text
User avatar
Gypyx
Gypyx
She/Her
Virtute Ex Machina
User avatar
User avatar
Gypyx
She/Her
Virtute Ex Machina
Virtute Ex Machina
Posts: 7272
Joined: March 25, 2020
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: France

Post Post #38 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:36 pm

Post by Gypyx »

otherwise all the other suggested changes seem cool yeah
bottom text
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3577
Joined: July 13, 2019
Pronoun: he/they
Location: Floorda

Post Post #39 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:48 pm

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

Fireman -> Firecombatant
User avatar
Gypyx
Gypyx
She/Her
Virtute Ex Machina
User avatar
User avatar
Gypyx
She/Her
Virtute Ex Machina
Virtute Ex Machina
Posts: 7272
Joined: March 25, 2020
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: France

Post Post #40 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:48 pm

Post by Gypyx »

Firefighter rather?
bottom text
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3577
Joined: July 13, 2019
Pronoun: he/they
Location: Floorda

Post Post #41 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:51 pm

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

Firecombatabt sounds hotter though
User avatar
Cheery Dog
Cheery Dog
Kayak
User avatar
User avatar
Cheery Dog
Kayak
Kayak
Posts: 8035
Joined: June 30, 2012
Location: OMG BALL!

Post Post #42 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:13 pm

Post by Cheery Dog »

In post 37, Gypyx wrote: The female verions of Preist is Priestress so yeah, this is indeed gendered
All terms that turn into a female version by adding "ess" on the end should just be removed anyway imo. The male term should just become gender-netural.
Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3577
Joined: July 13, 2019
Pronoun: he/they
Location: Floorda

Post Post #43 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:35 pm

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

Dist and Distress.
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5721
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #44 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:01 am

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 39, Jake The Wolfie wrote:Fireman -> Firecombatant
Fireman is gendered but the role in the wiki is the gender-neutral Firefighter.
time will end
User avatar
samantha97
samantha97
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
samantha97
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2493
Joined: July 16, 2011

Post Post #45 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:03 am

Post by samantha97 »

this never bothered me cause it's like getting a male protagonist on a video game... only less so because it's just a name that only you can see and stops there
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3577
Joined: July 13, 2019
Pronoun: he/they
Location: Floorda

Post Post #46 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:12 am

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

In post 0, TemporalLich wrote:Gender does not matter (and should not matter - otherwise the mod is both sexist and a bad mod) in rands,
I feel like this could be in dispute in the niche case where it's a metagame about the players themselves.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15111
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #47 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:48 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 37, Gypyx wrote:The female verions of Preist is Priestress so yeah, this is indeed gendered
The feminine form of Hero is heroine, but it is entirely accurate to say "Susan B Anthony is a hero of the women's rights movement."

The Anglican Church (one of the forms of Christianity that allows for female priests) still ordains women as priests and deacons.

Both terms are gender neutral, with a feminine specific term attached.

Also, not that it really matters, but Elite BG was at least partially in use in 2014 for shadowmod's viewtopic.php?f=54&t=60270&hilit=elite as they used it to describe the Who/Me hydra action. I'm not actually sure when the first instance of it was though.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Jake The Wolfie
he/they
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3577
Joined: July 13, 2019
Pronoun: he/they
Location: Floorda

Post Post #48 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:51 am

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

I honestly think it doesn't matter, all things considered. Unless we're actively missing out on new scummers because of this (or the current scummers we have feel offended by the gendered terminology), I don't think it's really necessary.
User avatar
fferyllt
fferyllt
Titan of Trajectory
User avatar
User avatar
fferyllt
Titan of Trajectory
Titan of Trajectory
Posts: 20488
Joined: December 28, 2012
Location: Left Coast

Post Post #49 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:53 am

Post by fferyllt »

In post 47, Jingle wrote:
In post 37, Gypyx wrote:The female verions of Preist is Priestress so yeah, this is indeed gendered
The feminine form of Hero is heroine, but it is entirely accurate to say "Susan B Anthony is a hero of the women's rights movement."

The Anglican Church (one of the forms of Christianity that allows for female priests) still ordains women as priests and deacons.

Both terms are gender neutral, with a feminine specific term attached.

Also, not that it really matters, but Elite BG was at least partially in use in 2014 for shadowmod's viewtopic.php?f=54&t=60270&hilit=elite as they used it to describe the Who/Me hydra action. I'm not actually sure when the first instance of it was though.
Earlier than that. I remember seeing it in a 2012 or 2013 game while doing a meta dive.
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

Idic
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”