The Mindmeld Theory

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The Mindmeld Theory

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:20 am

Post by nomnomnom »

What makes a great town player?

This is a question you might sometimes ask yourself, or a question you might see discussed around here fairly often. Playing town is hard, and so people like to discuss what would ideally be the best quality in a town player. If we wanted to be surface level, we would say something among the lines of:
"It's simple, good town players nail down the scums in any given game!"

While this is obviously true, the road to get there is very hard. People need to sit down and process an enormous amount of information and somehow find the scum in what could be an extremely long series of posts that can be interpreted in a thousand ways. Everyone has been confused in a game before. Everyone has tunneled their mind off on reads that turned out to be wrong before. Everyone has lost their mind trying to make sense of interactions that just raise many question marks in their brains before. Everyone has been frustrated at some people who they deem to be playing "incorrectly", at which point you have to ask yourself if you're talking to a fellow town member who is not playing optimally, or just scum. There is a very real possibility that you overthink a game so hard reading some posts over and over that you eventually confuse yourself out of the very simple answers that lie within the game. All of that doesn't even acknowledge the skill of the scum players present in the game, who can potentially throw a lot of red herrings around in an attempt to confuse you even more. I find the game of mafia as a town player to be a maddening endeavor, a paranoia inducing experience where the more a game goes on, the more I lose a sense of what is right and what is wrong, and that right there might be what for me is personally the hardest thing for me as a town player, and potentially my biggest weakness.
And to me this is where the basic answer to the above question comes from:
a great town player can trust others
.
Image
This isn't a particularly novel view. A few mafia view articles have discussed the importance of establishing trust with other players in the game. Trusting others makes the paranoid "what if" scenarios go out of your head. Trusting others makes it easier to have a clearer view on people's posts. Trusting others is reassuring, and calming for the mind, and thus cultivates a sane state of mind to play a game like this. And this is why mafia as a game is stressful, because trusting others is extremely hard, especially if you happen to be the kind of person that already has trust issues outside of the game. Players will do things that toy with your trust. People will lie, even as town despite common good play practices advising against it (Lim All Liars). People will do ridiculously scummy things. People will make posts that are completely nonsensical. People will somehow manage to grab the townread you have established on them, and tear it apart by doing something that doesn't inspire trust. People are vastly unpredictable, and we tend to distrust things we do not inherently understand. I think that a big part of paranoia (and potentially what we find to be scummy in games) tends to inherently come from the inability to understand the state of mind of someone else, and that can be due to a lot of factors that I listed above.

Enter
the Mindmeld
, which is the complete opposite situation.

The Mindmeld

Image

A mindmeld is what essentially happens when someone says something that resonates with you so much there is a part of you that believes you share the exact same train of thought. You feel as though they have just typed something you had in your mind this whole time. This is not to be confused with agreeing. Agreeing with someone is a rather common occurrence in a mafia game. Agreeing with someone is what I would describe as a logical experience. Two players can look at the same thing and come to the same logical conclusion, therefore agreeing with each other. The problem with mere agreement is that it indicates absolutely nothing about the alignment of the player you agree with. It will happen that you find yourself agreeing with town and scum players alike about a various array of topics. Logical agreement is something I wouldn't consider worthy of trust.

In contrast, a Mindmeld is an
emotional experience
. Have you ever seen these romantic movies where one of the members of the couple manages to finish the other person's sentences, and so that person feels intensely like they understand each other on a soul level? Have you ever watched a review of something, where the reviewer says something that resonates so profoundly with you that you almost wanted to scream "YES!" at your screen?
That
is a mindmeld. That kind of reaction might not even be triggered by anything that is inherently game related. It might be something that, from a logical perspective, is completely inconsequential. It might be how someone types something out, it might be a shared emotional state of mind that deeply resonates with how you feel at the moment, it might even be a joke. It doesn't matter because we perceive some kind of inherent truth to these words that we identify with. A mindmeld makes us feel very good, vindicated, reassured, and from what I experienced, it's just impossible for me to not comment on it, because of how strongly I feel inside when such a thing happens. In contrast to simply agreeing with someone, for me, a mindmeld is a very strong sign that someone is town. In fact I would say it is the strongest way to ever establish a townread, and should be trusted over anything else that has happened in the game. I consider it to be the most reassuring experience there is.

You might ask yourself why that is, and the answer to that is very simple. If you resonate with something this strongly, that means that what was typed out has some sort of inherent truth to you inside it. It's something you completely understand, relate to and feel inside of you. In order for that to be achieved, someone must somehow see the world similarly to you and have the same way to not only process information, but also
a very relatable way to express it
. These moments where you feel a mindmeld is happening is nothing more than the manifestation of feeling like someone is just like you, and in a game of mafia, in the vast majority of cases, that just means someone is town. In truth, it is actually very hard for scums to generate this kind of reaction in town players. They do not share the same background. They do not share the same goals. They do not share the same mindset nor the same thought process. It is extremely hard for a scum player to conjure up that sort of feeling when those differences exist. For a scum to generate this kind of reaction in a townie, they'd have to understand that person so well they inexplicably find the exact words to say to earn that kind of response, which involves a great deal of social intelligence and is also just pure luck, as a mindmeld is something that largely happens by accident.

The town utopia is essentially to construct a strong mindmeld with the other town members in the game and become a town hivemind of sorts, where every single townie understand each other, relate to each other, and can finally trust each other. That is the dream.

A mindmeld is not only something that allows you to easily recognize other townies in the game. It's also an extremely great threat to scum. If townies actually manage to establish that level of trust and rapport, it is incredibly hard for scum to navigate the game. If you've ever played a game where townies have established a strong block between themselves, you know how that feels like. Two townies mindmelding with each other is probably the most devastating thing that can ever happen for a scum player, as it is simply a level of trust that no amount of paranoia can possibly break, and in a game where the most effective scum tool of all is paranoia? It's simply game losing. For that reason, if such a mindmeld was to occur between two townies, it is likely that scum will attempt to break it, and thus potentially put a big neon sign on their head that they are in fact scum. The only effective way to combat such a thing is for other townies to be suspicious of two players that inexplicably started townreading each other in such a strong way. That tends to happen quite a lot, because, again, these townies cannot relate to these two people, and that especially happens if those people happen to scumread someone in the mindmeld transaction.

Of course, the caveat of the mindmeld is that it often is a one-way feeling, that is to say that if a townie mindmelds with another townie, it doesn't mean that the latter will necessarily start trusting the former. A big obstacle to overcome really is the paranoia that you are being pocketed by a scum player. Someone making this kind of post towards your slot can be a great source of paranoia. However I find that to be a great mistake and something to potentially explore.

There is one thing that is fairly certain to me:
a player expressing that they mindmeld with someone has very little chances of actually being scum
. As I said before, to me, a mindmeld is essentially an emotional experience. What is important to note is that this experience is actually impossible to be felt by scum. A scum will absolutely never look at a townie and ever think "wow, we are mindmelding!!!" That just simply never happens. Only a townie would ever look at a post and feel something so strong inside they feel the need to come in thread to say "wow I am mindmelding so hard with X, they must be town." Sure, a scum player can fake this sort of post and they have reasons to do so, such as faking reads, pocketing someone, etc. But the essence of a mindmeld makes it so that the emotion on display will inherently be fake. It is very easy for scum players to say they townread someone, but it is much harder for a scum player to not only establish a townread, but also fake the emotional experience that comes with a mindmeld. It's also much less likely that a scum player will make this sort of post even if they are willing to attempt such a thing, because scums are inherently anxious about appearing as irrational. A mindmeld will inevitably be questioned by the rest of the town, and it puts scum in a situation where they have to basically rationalize the irrational. There is simply more risk for a scum player to post this kind of thing because of the attention it can garner, whereas town will most likely post this kind of thing with earnest intention, simply because they feel so strongly about it. As such, players expressing a mindmeld have much bigger chances to be town, and if they aren't, it must be because the emotional aspect of it comes across as fake, and doesn't come from an honest town player. Mindmelding in general tends to also be fairly uncommon. It is something that cannot be generated out of thin air, and the components that go into it have to do a lot more than in-game content and has components like personality coming into play. The rarer occurrence of it makes it so that when a player expresses such an emotion, it is most likely to be true, in my mind.

What I would define as "fake" here really is a matter of opinion, and it might depend from player to player, as emotional reactions are largely a personality thing, but I feel as if the intensity of the emotional reaction is a key component of it. Mindmelding is a very strong emotion. As such it is very likely that someone saying they mindmeld with someone will say so in a very emotive manner, as opposed to a very composed manner. I understand that a lot of people on this site do not put much importance on tonality, as it can easily mislead and is a very volatile component, but in a case like this, I feel fairly confident in saying that this is a very good way of determining if a player truly is sincere when they say they mindmeld with someone. A lot of emotions can easily be faked (such as anger, which is why AtE is a very common scumtell). This one easily falls in the category of "hard to fake". A scum player can easily source their anger from various sources ("caught for the wrong reason" is a very easy source of anger), but they can hardly generate an emotion they will never actually feel. That is the key difference here. This is very important to understand, because mindmelding can actually cause a sort of domino effect in a game, where a mindmeld potentially spreads enough that everyone in the game believes that these two players that have just mindmelded and now trust each other are actually town. Having that sort of situation happen greatly increases the chances of town winning from that point forward.

Summary

To finish this post, I will reiterate what I think is the most important:
  • Mindmelds are one of the strongest ways to trust someone to be town.
  • Trust your own mindmelds. If you mindmeld with someone, it is extremely likely they are town, because the source of the mindmeld has to come from some inherent townie truth that you both share.
  • Scum players have great interest in breaking mindmelds, as they create game losing situations for scums.
  • Mindmelds can only be honestly felt by a townie. If someone brings it up, the chances that they are town is increased, so long as you perceive the emotion behind that to be genuine.
That is all. I'd love to discuss about thoughts you guys have about this subject. I really love when mindmelds happen, they truly are something magical :]
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:33 am

Post by Psyche »

i need evidence
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:46 am

Post by Gypyx »

gtg gonna say mindmeld in all of my scumgames for town points
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:10 am

Post by Ircher »

In post 1, Psyche wrote:i need evidence
^

It's a good read and an interesting perspective, but I would like some examples of where this happened to support it.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:16 am

Post by nomnomnom »

I probably should have made some research before typing this post, but it's the kind of thing that I feel fairly strongly about :P
A problem with any kind of research is that some people might not even type the word "mindmeld" and might express it differently. Nonetheless I made some fast research on a very limited number of games. I picked every mention of the word mindmeld from the first 6 pages of result when you search for the term. This is what I got. My conclusion is still that the overwhelming majority of mindmeld posts and mentions come from town. Perhaps there is a case to be made about how all these players mention the word mindmeld, as they might have a very different notion of the term than what I presented here. I can still see that the stronger a mindmeld is expressed (read that as "with emotion and conviction") the more likely it is to come from town. If people are interested, I can actually go the extensive route and compile data on every single mention, but unless you guys consider this is not conclusive evidence of anything, I'd rather not because that's a lot of data to parse :lol:
There might be a point to be made here that perhaps the theory needs some refinement as there clearly exists cases where scum players will make mindmeld posts. It also seems like town players will very rarely mindmeld with a scum player as there is only one example of that happening in this very limited sample, although again, for this to be confirmed, I might have to go through some more data.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:04 am

Post by Nero Cain »

There have been plenty of times when I have town read people based on having similar thoughts though I don't know if I used the word "mindmeld". As scum, I've used it to justify a town read and as town, I've misread scum for this. Sure there's some merit but this may not be all that accurate. There are always going to be more town in a game (unless it's a really funky setup) and one is more likely to town read town or agree with town just because there are more town in the game.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:15 am

Post by nomnomnom »

In post 5, Nero Cain wrote:There have been plenty of times when I have town read people based on having similar thoughts though I don't know if I used the word "mindmeld". As scum, I've used it to justify a town read and as town, I've misread scum for this. Sure there's some merit but this may not be all that accurate. There are always going to be more town in a game (unless it's a really funky setup) and one is more likely to town read town or agree with town just because there are more town in the game.
Thank you for your perspective, those are valid points!
Did you feel as though you were agreeing with those people or was it stronger than that? Because again, the basis of my theory here is that a mindmeld is much
much
stronger than simple agreement. It goes beyond the logical and when that has happened to me, I felt a very strong emotional resonance happening, and from my very fast research it feels as though some town!mindmeld posts seem to carry some sort of strong emotional component to it. I feel the most important part of all of this to me really is the emotion that occurs when it seems you are mindmelding with a player. Notably I feel as though town would be very excited and very reassured to mindmeld with anyone in a game because of the paranoia-inducing nature of the game, and as a logical conclusion I feel it is quite impossible for scums to actually feel that emotion organically because they will simply never actually feel it. Any scum!mindmeld post would have to be a complete lie, and I believe it is a lot easier for scums to settle on half-truths rather than complete fabrication, especially something like an emotion or a feeling. I just feel like there's something to explore here, these things really have the potential to manifest into very solid towntells!
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:17 am

Post by the worst »

I think there's a couple of dependencies I'd qualify in this theory

- it only flows one way. it's a good way to find townreads, but not a good way to be townread. someone saying "I townread you because mindmeld" without reciprocation is probably close to rand/slightly more likely to be scum.

- this really only applies to pretty significant gamestate reads / inner workings reads. Townreading someone for agreeing with you about one player's alignment is fraught with danger. Townreading someone for approaching a read with a similar mindset and reaching a similar conclusion is a better indicator than just having similar reads.

- confirmation bias. there's a level of self-awareness required to be aware of whether you are confbiased towards people who agree with you (or who are intentionally manipulating you) or whether you independently really like their brain thoughts.

I think it's a kinda neat tell and definitely something to help push players out of the null zone, but I don't think I'd bet my life on agreeing with someone without a tonne of consideration.

pedit: noms is aware of what I'm angling at and has kind of already responded to this so adding a "duly noted".
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:24 pm

Post by Psyche »

Are people using the word "mindmeld" in the examples above? Is it that much of a popular word?? If so, there are some statistics we can try doing over every mention across the site perhaps.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:31 pm

Post by nomnomnom »

In post 8, Psyche wrote:Are people using the word "mindmeld" in the examples above? Is it that much of a popular word?? If so, there are some statistics we can try doing over every mention across the site perhaps.
Yes. All the posts I have mentioned and listed specifically use the word "mindmeld". I don't know about popularity but I've seen it used many times in games and searching the term across mafia games returns 35 pages of results, so it's not like it's an obscure term. My analysis was done across non-ongoing games for the first 6 pages (which would be the most recent mentions).
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:47 pm

Post by Psyche »

Cool, I'll add it to the list of Questions. Also wow this forum is full of nerds!
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:23 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

if you're searching for the word "mindmeld" you'll also want to search "mirror" as me and probably a few others call such things the "mirror tell"
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:36 am

Post by Psyche »

I'm hopeful that down the line I'll be able to offer a generic tool that lets you pipe in an arbitrary list of post urls (or a search query if you don't want to handpick the posts) and return some game-relevant summary statistics as an output using a maintained archive.

I guess in this case you'll also want a list of usernames for the person receiving the mindmeld characterization. I could try building a player reference detector to help with this (maybe it looks for the closest player reference to the search term?) but that sure makes the project even more complicated, huh?

In the meantime, I did a study a long time ago based on keywords that maybe someone else might want to tackle. It was about uses of the word "flailing"; yours is about "mind meld". There were some flaws, but reading through the discussion of those flaws might help people avoid them in this case.

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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:00 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Good thread.

One thing I wonder is-- how do you know that all the people in those examples are using it to mean the same thing you are? Maybe the use of the word is a towntell (or was, until you pointed it out), but those people could have just used it to mean "I agree with this person" rather than your emotional definition.

(And, it sounds like your definition mostly boils down to "they said something I agree with but couldn't articulate", which doesn't seem that emotional to me, but I'm not an emotional player so maybe it just doesn't happen to me.)
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:35 am

Post by Isis »

I'm rly mindmelding with nomnomnom on this one
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:19 am

Post by nomnomnom »

In post 13, Something_Smart wrote:Good thread.

One thing I wonder is-- how do you know that all the people in those examples are using it to mean the same thing you are? Maybe the use of the word is a towntell (or was, until you pointed it out), but those people could have just used it to mean "I agree with this person" rather than your emotional definition.

(And, it sounds like your definition mostly boils down to "they said something I agree with but couldn't articulate", which doesn't seem that emotional to me, but I'm not an emotional player so maybe it just doesn't happen to me.)
This is a good question and I think this is mostly why I didn't originally do a deep dive into a specific example using the word "mindmeld" because in the end, it's very possible that my definition is very different to all these people that have used the word, and it's also entirely possible that a lot of people have described the same effect happening to them in other games without specifically using the word mindmeld.
However it seems clear to me that at least some of the examples I provided actually use mindmeld as I described it here, which more than the word itself, is an emotional state where you relate so much to someone's thought process in a game it feels as though they are just like you. This is mostly why I think that if this thread's conclusion for most people was "oh, when people use the word mindmeld it's a towntell!", it would be quite a waste of time considering that if scums are aware of this, then they'd simply have to mention the word to prove my theory false and render it completely useless.
The most important part to me really is the phenomenon I am describing here rather than the word, and I think this is important if you're going to use my theory in any kind of significant way. I think what I mean by "emotional" here might not be something as clear-cut as joy/sadness/anger/etc, but rather an emotional appeal. I think it's more akin to a feeling, and I am making an assumption that people would most likely feel the same as me if they were to relate so much to someone that they start
feeling reassured and relieved
that someone is town. There's a certain "good feel" to all of what I'm describing here, it just feels good to be able to trust someone this deeply. You could spend some time perhaps examining the different feelings and emotions that course through you when this happens. The bigger point about this is that the mindmeld represents a spectrum of feelings and emotions that scums will never possibly be able to feel, and that's how you can tell a townie most likely made the post if it reads as though the person is relieved, or excited. And sure, again, I'll say it's possible that a scum could in theory pull off completely faking this sort of state to others, but it's much harder and it's not how scums usually lie about things.

This could easily enter a wider discussion about emotional responses and emotional ranges and I think it's a fascinating topic, and also far more productive and novel than the seemingly very logical aspect that people have decided to use when going through mafia games. I think the emotional side of mafia is severely understudied aside from things like AtE, and I think there's potentially a lot to unpack here.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:34 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 6, nomnomnom wrote:Did you feel as though you were agreeing with those people or was it stronger than that? Because again, the basis of my theory here is that a mindmeld is much much stronger than simple agreement.
not really? :?

I mean I think there are prob times when you just sorta understand where someone is coming from or are like empathetic to their emotional state of mind or something. Like its certainly a thing but it's not surefire or anything.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:41 am

Post by Psyche »

Yeah, I also sometimes experience a sense of insight into another person's mental state, and consider those critical for helping me build reads. But I've also come to learn that this feeling is often illusory and that I tend to underestimate how easy it is to choose and fake town-like thought processes/feelings. So yeah I'm dubious about the mindmeld theory.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:00 am

Post by nomnomnom »

In post 17, Psyche wrote:Yeah, I also sometimes experience a sense of insight into another person's mental state, and consider those critical for helping me build reads. But I've also come to learn that this feeling is often illusory and that I tend to underestimate how easy it is to choose and fake town-like thought processes/feelings. So yeah I'm dubious about the mindmeld theory.
If I understand correctly, you describe this sense of insight as an illusion, which on a logical level might be true, but this illusion comes with its sense of emotions and feelings, and the greater point of my theory is that this is something that only townies can genuinely feel and I feel that this is the basis of a greater discussion we could be having about emotions. I make a lengthy point about how I envision that it's harder for a townie to relate to a scum on an emotional level, but even if we disregarded that, I feel that we can't possibly ignore that this feeling that you and I are talking about can only be felt by a townie on a genuine level. Scums can only replicate it and that's much harder to do because you would have to completely fabricate that, and I think this is the kind of thing that eventually can unravel itself as fake.

This thread is kinda weird in the sense that I feel like what I'm talking about might be completely alien to some people, because again from what I see, discussion around mafia tend to be very logically based and I'm talking about something that is hard to actually capture into words and that might make it seem like I'm talking complete gibberish :giggle: And I think proving any of this would involve things like surveys and analyzing the responses you get from those, instead of the approach I tried to take earlier. This is actually very hard to prove and I'm mostly basing it on my own experience. It might very well be possible that a lot of people don't feel as strongly as I do when this thing happens to them.
Wow you're so good at avoiding death and killing slots that are not part of the informed minority. Wow how are you so good at playing this game.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:05 am

Post by Psyche »

I mean, it could be possible to score instances of references to mindmelding and whatever on a scale of 1-10 based on apparent intensity if that's thought to mediate the thing.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:12 am

Post by nomnomnom »

I guess it's one avenue to tackle the problem! The more emotionally intense posts I linked really do seem to capture what I was trying to say in my OP and the people that expressed the posts this way happened to be town, and it just seems to be that being able to trust someone this deeply makes someone feel relaxed and induces a positive response that can actually be observed in the post. Although again, we have the problem that not everyone expresses themselves the same way emotionally, personality plays a much bigger role here and it can be messy to analyze. But I think this has promise!
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:21 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

One of my strongest/favorite mindmelds I've ever had is when Datisi and I (both town) posted pretty much the same analysis of two slots being not-aligned at the exact same time
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:12 am

Post by MUSHSHAGANA »

This is interesting with how I approach a Mafia game I’m doing well in.

I figure out how to parse what other players are saying first, without regard to alignment. This is a lot of poking and prodding for reactions, and building up a mental map.

When I have 3-5 people I can parse consistently, I work on being a machine that binds them together, turning their thoughts into a useful pathway. Most often these are town, but I have worked with scumreads in this way off-site too. I make it about me, taking credit for everything so I can avoid the important components of my strategy being taken out early.

It’s not quite a mind meld, it’s more about being able to model them well enough that I can infer the steps they take in thinking about what to post, and see what they are seeing. Effectively, parasitize perspective to see a game from all angles without chasing pointless trivialities. But I feel like it has very similar effects on a game to a mind meld.

Incidentally, while I’ve never played as scum before ever, I have reason to believe I would do this exact same thing as scum. My goal there would be to formulate a way to send town down a rabbit hole with the sense that they are the entire reason they did that, rather than me. But watching me, it would look exactly the same as my town play in that department, probably — might be able to catch me giving credit to others more prominently.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:07 am

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

In post 5, Nero Cain wrote:unless it's a really funky setup
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:12 pm

Post by humaneatingmonkey »

The Mindmeld Theory is now running in the Open queue. I'm using the Trust Fall setup to test this theory on how well you can trust your mindmelds. :P
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