Consistency of the Rule Regarding Quotation

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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:14 pm

Post by Lukewarm »

I don't think that the issue boiled down to key terms, like the "dirty money," example.

There was just so much of Unwnd's exact wording. Like look back at post . Like, every single line. Mastina's sentences do not look/feel like they are in Mastina's own words.

I also think that it is clear that that is the issue. I mean, 15 or so players successfully claimed that game, but only the one crossed the line, so clearly there were acceptable ways to claim your role.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:14 pm

Post by jjh927 »

In post 98, MURDERCAT wrote:Then say "I have had dirty money since Day 1" there is always a way to paraphrase.
Not true, you only know you started the game with it but do not know what happened afterwards as it could have been stolen or moved. It is also not specific, as you know you started the game with 1 pile of dirty money and this quantity is important. You may have more than 1 pile of dirty money, and in fact a Mafia Bourgeoisie starts the game with 2 piles of dirty money.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:15 pm

Post by Lukewarm »

In post 52, Lukewarm wrote:I think that the issue is more obvious, when you put mastina's claim right next to the way it is worded in her role PM

My non-SP ability is Charm Eye. I target a player and they are Charmed -- Charming counts as a form of marking.
----------------------
Charm Eye [Active] - Choose a target. That target will become Charmed. Charm is a form of marking.

My 1-SP ability is Chain Circle. I bind the target, negating all support done to them
---------------------
Chain Circle (1 SP) [Active] Choose a target. You will bind that target, negating all support done to them.

My 2-SP ability is Nerve Circle. I ensnare my target in a circle--anyone targeting that player takes 2 HP in damage
---------------------
Nerve Circle (2 SP) [Active] Choose a target. That player will be ensnared into a circle, and any user who targets that player for that stratum will take 2 damage.

My 3-SP ability is Curse Circle. I curse my target to be unable to be healed by utility abilities.
---------------------
Curse Circle (3 SP) [Active] Choose a target. You will enact a curse upon them, where they may no longer be healed by utility abilities.

My fourth ability, Dispel, 2-SP, is dispelling the curse circle. Doing so heals me for 2 HP.
--------------------
Dispel (2 SP) [Active, Self-Targeting] Choosing to dispel your Curse Circle will cause you to heal for 2 damage instead.

My passive, Enlightenment, makes me gain 1 SP every time I successfully mark someone.
-------------------
Enlightenment [Passive] - Each successful mark will grant you 1 additional SP.


Basically every ability uses the same wording. I also find is strange that she even put the ability names?? Like, what impact does that have on your claim, unless you are hoping that everyone will be more likely to believe that it is coming straight from your pm?
Like, looking at each line side by side, it does not look like paraphrasing to me
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:19 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

"I have had dirty money since Day 1"
"How much?"
"1 pile"

It is your responsibility as a player to avoid copying word for word phrases. In your example if there is another miller they could confirm the claim based on what you posted.
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:21 pm

Post by jjh927 »

In post 100, Lukewarm wrote:I don't think that the issue boiled down to key terms, like the "dirty money," example.

There was just so much of Unwnd's exact wording. Like look back at post . Like, every single line. Mastina's sentences do not look/feel like they are in Mastina's own words.

I also think that it is clear that that is the issue. I mean, 15 or so players successfully claimed that game, but only the one crossed the line, so clearly there were acceptable ways to claim your role.
And I imagine every player who claimed after Mastina did so with a far greater level of care than they would normally. She also had the most complicated role PM in the game. Finally, when you split it up to try and make it obvious for comparison's sake, you are actively making an effort to sift through the paraphrasing, so of course it will end up looking unnatural.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:22 pm

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 93, Lukewarm wrote:SS, I think that modkilled is the only way to handle this particular issue tbh.

What other response do you suggest?

Public warnings and/or force replace would both amplify the damage from the original post, and would just make the situation worse, right?
In the mastina scenario, I think the proper response is to do nothing, because she was clearly paraphrasing as closely as she could, and the borrowed phrases were not substantial and mostly included keywords, and nobody thought (or would reasonably think) those specific parts were the verbatim ones.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:23 pm

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 102, Lukewarm wrote:Like, looking at each line side by side, it does not look like paraphrasing to me
Paraphrasing is literally saying the same thing using different words. How is that not paraphrasing?
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:23 pm

Post by jjh927 »

In post 103, MURDERCAT wrote:"I have had dirty money since Day 1"
"How much?"
"1 pile"

It is your responsibility as a player to avoid copying word for word phrases. In your example if there is another miller they could confirm the claim based on what you posted.
That is a conversation which inherently conveys something different to offering the full information all at once by its nature as a conversation and the desired information only being offered on request by another player
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:27 pm

Post by fferyllt »

In post 104, jjh927 wrote:
In post 100, Lukewarm wrote:I don't think that the issue boiled down to key terms, like the "dirty money," example.

There was just so much of Unwnd's exact wording. Like look back at post . Like, every single line. Mastina's sentences do not look/feel like they are in Mastina's own words.

I also think that it is clear that that is the issue. I mean, 15 or so players successfully claimed that game, but only the one crossed the line, so clearly there were acceptable ways to claim your role.
And I imagine every player who claimed after Mastina did so with a far greater level of care than they would normally. She also had the most complicated role PM in the game. Finally, when you split it up to try and make it obvious for comparison's sake, you are actively making an effort to sift through the paraphrasing, so of course it will end up looking unnatural.
Speaking for my hydra...actually, no.

Mastina was under no duress to claim when she did, and neither were we.

We gave the general amount of care we always give when claiming. Seeing mastina modkilled didn't put the fear of Arceus in us.
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:28 pm

Post by jjh927 »

I do not think there is a way of saying that you started the game with 1 pile of dirty money without saying the words "1 pile of dirty money" in roughly that order
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:29 pm

Post by Ircher »

I think I agree with jjh with regards to keywords/key phrases. It's really hard to get around them and communicate the same information, so players shouldn't be penalized for using them. That said, I think it's still important to consider the other factor here that it's not just about making it look like it came from the moderator. The other aspect is how similar it looks to other town role pms compared to mafia role pms as the two generally look somewhat different. We provide sample role pms because we, as moderators, don't want players to break the game based on a specific format or wording. Likewise, we can't allow direct copy-pastes of substantial parts of a role pm for the same reason, even if it doesn't look like a quote.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:30 pm

Post by Ircher »

The real question imo is what counts as "substantial". This likely varies from mod to mod.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:31 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

In post 109, jjh927 wrote:I do not think there is a way of saying that you started the game with 1 pile of dirty money without saying the words "1 pile of dirty money" in roughly that order
Sure, I think that's fine. Just don't include the other nongame terms in the same order
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:32 pm

Post by Lukewarm »

In post 106, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 102, Lukewarm wrote:Like, looking at each line side by side, it does not look like paraphrasing to me
Paraphrasing is literally saying the same thing using different words. How is that not paraphrasing?
It does not look like "adequate" paraphrasing to me.

Having both written and graded papers, I know that there is a thresh hold where something has been put into your own words, but I also know that, even in that setting, that thresh hold is a bit hard to pin down.

What I was trying to say, is that based on my experience, I don't think that it crossed that thresh hold.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:33 pm

Post by Lukewarm »

In post 108, fferyllt wrote:
In post 104, jjh927 wrote:
In post 100, Lukewarm wrote:I don't think that the issue boiled down to key terms, like the "dirty money," example.

There was just so much of Unwnd's exact wording. Like look back at post . Like, every single line. Mastina's sentences do not look/feel like they are in Mastina's own words.

I also think that it is clear that that is the issue. I mean, 15 or so players successfully claimed that game, but only the one crossed the line, so clearly there were acceptable ways to claim your role.
And I imagine every player who claimed after Mastina did so with a far greater level of care than they would normally. She also had the most complicated role PM in the game. Finally, when you split it up to try and make it obvious for comparison's sake, you are actively making an effort to sift through the paraphrasing, so of course it will end up looking unnatural.
Speaking for my hydra...actually, no.

Mastina was under no duress to claim when she did, and neither were we.

We gave the general amount of care we always give when claiming. Seeing mastina modkilled didn't put the fear of Arceus in us.
Also, Mastina was not even the first one to claim. Toog was able to claim successfully
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:38 pm

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

Looking at Mastina's claim, it looks normal. I wasn't in the game, but if I were I suspect that I wouldn't've thought "Oh, Mastina is copying what her role PM says." because I, as a player, would not have known what Mastina's role PM said.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:41 pm

Post by jjh927 »

In post 113, Lukewarm wrote:
In post 106, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 102, Lukewarm wrote:Like, looking at each line side by side, it does not look like paraphrasing to me
Paraphrasing is literally saying the same thing using different words. How is that not paraphrasing?
It does not look like "adequate" paraphrasing to me.

Having both written and graded papers, I know that there is a thresh hold where something has been put into your own words, but I also know that, even in that setting, that thresh hold is a bit hard to pin down.

What I was trying to say, is that based on my experience, I don't think that it crossed that thresh hold.
The threshold for plagiarism isn't a good baseline for this. Claiming your role would always be plagiarism, just with varying levels of rewording- as even with rewording it will still be plagiarism regardless of whether plagiarism detectors detect it or not, as your goal is to accurately describe the thing first described to you by the moderator. I think to be considered a quote is a different standard, and it requires attribution.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:44 pm

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

"I can't die, even if a player modkills me.
The only time I can die is if the Moderator Modkills me"

If you were a player in a game and you had just seen this claim, could you determine if this is copying from their role, or paraphrasing their role?
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:45 pm

Post by Lukewarm »

It seems impossible to disentangle this discussion from just debating the Yggdrasil ruling - despite a couple people saying that we should.

I think I am back to wondering if this is even a issue that needs to be fixed. Especially since you seemed to agree with the modkill in the only other example of a modkill over this issue.

Is this an issue that you are think you are likely to run into in your future games - when unwnd is not the mod?

Because, if you have been on the site for 4 years, and in your experience, there is only 1 example of the current system having the wrong ruling - then is that really a big problem? A system that "maybe" messes up once every 4 years?
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:45 pm

Post by jjh927 »

In post 117, Jake The Wolfie wrote:"I can't die, even if a player modkills me.
The only time I can die is if the Moderator Modkills me"

If you were a player in a game and you had just seen this claim, could you determine if this is copying from their role, or paraphrasing their role?
They're paraphrasing at best because a player can't modkill anyone. I'd assume they're lying about their role
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:46 pm

Post by jjh927 »

In post 118, Lukewarm wrote:It seems impossible to disentangle this discussion from just debating the Yggdrasil ruling - despite a couple people saying that we should.

I think I am back to wondering if this is even a issue that needs to be fixed. Especially since you seemed to agree with the modkill in the only other example of a modkill over this issue.

Is this an issue that you are think you are likely to run into in your future games - when unwnd is not the mod?

Because, if you have been on the site for 4 years, and in your experience, there is only 1 example of the current system having the wrong ruling - then is that really a big problem? A system that "maybe" messes up once every 4 years?
It really annoyed me when it did happen so I would like to remove any possibility of it ever happening again
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:49 pm

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

In post 118, Lukewarm wrote:Because, if you have been on the site for 4 years, and in your experience, there is only 1 example of the current system having the wrong ruling - then is that really a big problem? A system that "maybe" messes up once every 4 years?
It's not a big problem, because of its frequency. When the problem happens however, it can blow up a game.
We should therefore strive to minimize errors.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:50 pm

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

In post 119, jjh927 wrote:
In post 117, Jake The Wolfie wrote:"I can't die, even if a player modkills me.
The only time I can die is if the Moderator Modkills me"

If you were a player in a game and you had just seen this claim, could you determine if this is copying from their role, or paraphrasing their role?
They're paraphrasing at best because a player can't modkill anyone. I'd assume they're lying about their role
Spoiler: The role itself


I'd like anyone to answer my post, even if it's only internally, before looking at what the role is.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:51 pm

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 113, Lukewarm wrote:It does not look like "adequate" paraphrasing to me.

Having both written and graded papers, I know that there is a thresh hold where something has been put into your own words, but I also know that, even in that setting, that thresh hold is a bit hard to pin down.

What I was trying to say, is that based on my experience, I don't think that it crossed that thresh hold.
Okay well there's no rule against inadequate paraphrasing. These are generally simple, keyword-laden ideas. There's not much you can do besides switching connecting words around. Even if this is something you know how to do, surely it's inappropriate to force those standards on everyone on the site, when the penalty is wrecking a game that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:24 pm

Post by Lukewarm »

In post 123, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 113, Lukewarm wrote:It does not look like "adequate" paraphrasing to me.

Having both written and graded papers, I know that there is a thresh hold where something has been put into your own words, but I also know that, even in that setting, that thresh hold is a bit hard to pin down.

What I was trying to say, is that based on my experience, I don't think that it crossed that thresh hold.
Okay well there's no rule against inadequate paraphrasing. These are generally simple, keyword-laden ideas. There's not much you can do besides switching connecting words around. Even if this is something you know how to do, surely it's inappropriate to force those standards on everyone on the site, when the penalty is wrecking a game that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into.
I don't expect anyone to be held to a higher then achievable standard - look back at the Yggdrasil game, and see how many people were able to claim their role without crossing the line. It was clearly possible to claim your role without crossing the line. In some instances, mastina did not even change around the words surrounding the "keywords"

Again however, I don't think that debating the mastina ruling actually does anything productive.

To be clear, when this topic was created, I was really interested to see if there was a pattern of this being a problem - if it was a recurring thing, then it should be addressed. But it looks like this topic is really just boiling down to debating the Mastina ruling :/
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