Consistency of the Rule Regarding Quotation

[jjh927]

Recent events within some games have led me to believe that game mods handle the site rule regarding quotation of moderator communications very differently. It would be helpful to have some discussion around this and some listmod input and 'official' clarification as to how the rule is supposed to be handled.

The rule in question is:
"Do not quote communications with the moderator (in particular, your role PM). Paraphrasing is usually ok."


As it stands, an overzealous approach to this rule can lead to completely avoidable modkills where the infraction has not at all damaged the gamestate. Personally, I have always interpreted "quote" to require attribution to the moderator, whereas at least some other game moderators appear to consider the use of identical short phrases to be an infraction worthy of a modkill- even when this does not harm the gamestate. This is particularly dangerous as different moderators inclined towards this school of thought will have different bars as to what constitutes sufficient paraphrasing, meaning what a player is used to in one game could get their slot modkilled in another.

I would propose that as a simple litmus test before a listmod approves a modkill for quotation of role PM, they look at the post(s) in question without looking at the actual role PM and see if they can determine if any of the words and phrases used were copied or not. At this moment I feel the general approach favours modkills in situations where there was no damage to the game, which is absolutely not how game rules should be being enforced.


How do other people feel about this? I think this is an area with little consistency in how it is handled and with potential for negative consequences on games, particularly in the theme queues where abnormal role PMs are commonplace.

[Cook]

i'd say generally speaking you don't need to quote moderator communication at all.

[shiki]

I have always interpreted "quote" to require attribution to the moderator

anytime a player is talking about their role or other information from a moderator, it is attributed to the moderator, as where else would that information have come from, so if the phrasing is the same or particularly similar, it is quoting, even if plagiarizing as opposed to crediting

i think the rule should probably be expanded to also include things like timestamps and the source of pms if the game has multiple moderators among various other things,

also a player referencing that unexpected communication with the moderator occurred, such as a player asking a question and receiving a response, if not done publically should probably be frowned upon (which isn't to say i think this sort of communication should happen publically; i do not. i simply think players should not say 'i asked the mod and...' whether truthful or not)

but at the same time,

i also believe that players should generally be expected to think outside of the box with regards to what is possible in the game and inside the box with regards to the rules of the game

like what else might i expect in this game based on my role and how can i manipulate the information i have or the game mechanics to create the best situation for myself are +++ whereas how close to quoting my role pm can i get without being modkilled is ---

so yes the rules could be more comprehensive but players should not be looking to see if something is technically within the rules if the thing they are trying to do is outside the spirit of the rules

like if quoting timestamps is against the rules i cannot establish my schedule in the thread and then say i was doing

this

when something occurred, as making rules to cover all situations of this sort is unreasonable and unfeasible

and that applies to all of the rules; if you are in a game or are aware of an ongoing game with a certain mechanic maybe wait until that game is over to discuss the mechanic even if in your opinion you are doing so in a way unrelated to the game in question, or if you are in an ongoing game and wish to talk to a listmod about something do not reach out publically, et cetera et cetera

the appearance of impropriety thing

[Something_Smart]

I think the central idea here is pretty simple. Regardless of the quoting rules, modkilling breaks the game. You shouldn't do it unless the game would be broken harder if you didn't. To that end, you should only modkill someone for admitting (or otherwise making it obvious) that they quoted mod communication.

[jjh927]

anytime a player is talking about their role or other information from a moderator, it is attributed to the moderator, as where else would that information have come from, so if the phrasing is the same or particularly similar, it is quoting, even if plagiarizing as opposed to crediting

I think that completely devalues the assumption that players are making an honest effort to paraphrase. Paraphrasing is where the different phrasing would come from. And it's when a player has made an honest effort to paraphrase that there is no damage to the game from similar phrasing being used, but some moderators would still modkill the slot.

i think the rule should probably be expanded to also include things like timestamps and the source of pms if the game has multiple moderators among various other things,

I agree with that- I would consider timestamps to be in the exact same category of thing, as such discussion would be from a player attempting to gain an advantage by using the nature of the moderator's communication.

[jjh927]

I think the central idea here is pretty simple. Regardless of the quoting rules, modkilling breaks the game. You shouldn't do it unless the game would be broken harder if you didn't. To that end, you should only modkill someone for admitting (or otherwise making it obvious) that they quoted mod communication.

100% agree. Frankly, when the advice for if one player literally PMs their role PM to another player is to replace both slots, it's jarring to see modkills being sought and approved when players have made an honest effort to paraphrase and there is no damage to the game. Modkills are last ditch damage control, not a punishment

[TemporalLich]

Modkilling will harm the game's integrity if misapplied - it needs to be used if and only if the risk to game integrity of not modkilling (this includes the lesser administrative action of forced replacement) is greater than (you're not getting an "or equal to" here) the risk to game integrity of modkilling.

Quoting mod communication is one of these times. If the moderator is clearly attributed and it looks like a quote it's a quote.

Paraphrasing, even if "my role PM says" or "the mod says" are included are still paraphrasing and to a player that player could be lying. I don't think this damages game integrity.

Copying is equivalent to quoting but the moderator isn't attributed. If it still looks like a quote, it's a quote. If not, it's copying and you'd need to know if your Role PMs are flavorful or generic.

Most games will have flavorful Role PMs where it will be obvious a quote or copy is a quote or copy. Copies of flavorful Role PMs are nearly as bad as quotes. Some games will have generic Role PMs (e.g. most Open setups). In that case, a copy might look like a paraphrase. I really don't know what would be the correct course of action.

If someone is brazen enough to quote a Role PM and include timestamps, the game is a total loss. Even if the Role PM turns out to be fabricated.

If you're trying to remove a problem player force replacement will be enough (unless the slot is already dead).

[jjh927]

For contexxt, the example that has driven me to action here is this modkill, which did have listmod approval. I'm not particularly happy with the way that this "murky situation" is being addressed by the list mods when it arises, and would prefer a consistently defined approach to how that situation is resolved in a way that does not result in unnecessary game-damaging modkills

[TemporalLich]

For contexxt, the example that has driven me to action here is this modkill, which did have listmod approval. I'm not particularly happy with the way that this "murky situation" is being addressed by the list mods when it arises, and would prefer a consistently defined approach to how that situation is resolved in a way that does not result in unnecessary game-damaging modkills

this is a bad modkill

I would say that is paraphrasing a flavorful Role PM. No harm done, a claim that looks like a claim and can easily be counterclaimed.

Granted, the level of paraphrasing is low (pretty much all meaningful info was claimed but the specific wording style was lost), but this is something that from a player's point of view could be damned lies.

Let me be double clear - this modkill is

objectively bad

and not just murky - the game integrity was harmed by the modkill

[jjh927]

When I asked in PMs, MariaR said:

Directly quoting communication from the mod is a modkill, it has been like this for ages. What mastina did was quote lines directly from their role pm with taking out a single word (that basically has the same meaning) and replacing it. It has never mattered if it does not 'look' like a role pm it is the action you are doing in regards to it.

I'd like to know if that's how all the listmods are resolving this kind of thing. If that is the case then I think their approach definitely needs to be reconsidered.

[TemporalLich]

A copy of a flavorful Role PM, which is what the listmods seem to think that is, would harm game integrity in the same way quoting a Role PM would - you would be cheating by having your role mod confirmed when it isn't supposed to be

[TemporalLich]

but yeah, the paraphrase is very close to being a copy - so it's not clear but when your two possibility fields are "a modkill is bad" and "ask the list moderators as you might need to modkill" a modkill might be a bad idea.

[Something_Smart]

When I asked in PMs, MariaR said:

Directly quoting communication from the mod is a modkill, it has been like this for ages.

What mastina did was quote lines directly from their role pm with taking out a single word (that basically has the same meaning) and replacing it. It has never mattered if it does not 'look' like a role pm it is the action you are doing in regards to it.

I'd like to know if that's how all the listmods are resolving this kind of thing. If that is the case then I think their approach definitely needs to be reconsidered.

I agree that this, specifically the bolded, seems like an error. A modkill isn't a punishment; it should be a way to save as much of the game integrity as possible, so it doesn't make sense to ignore the effect the infraction has on the game.

(And it doesn't make sense to treat it as a punishment, because it punishes everyone in the game, including the mod.)

[Bell]

Okay, do you want the mods to write up a more rigorous policy in regards to quotation of role pms?

[jjh927]

Ultimately I want to see a commitment to a consistent approach which does not result in unnecessary modkills in whatever form that takes

[Bell]

I don’t think increasing laxity is the solution.
It should just have all the terms defined, the intent laid out and then specific boundaries on what is and isn’t breaking the rule. So that each mod’s interpretation is uniform or as close to uniform as reasonably possible.

[fferyllt]

When I asked in PMs, MariaR said:

Directly quoting communication from the mod is a modkill, it has been like this for ages.

What mastina did was quote lines directly from their role pm with taking out a single word (that basically has the same meaning) and replacing it. It has never mattered if it does not 'look' like a role pm it is the action you are doing in regards to it.

I'd like to know if that's how all the listmods are resolving this kind of thing. If that is the case then I think their approach definitely needs to be reconsidered.

I agree that this, specifically the bolded, seems like an error. A modkill isn't a punishment; it should be a way to save as much of the game integrity as possible, so it doesn't make sense to ignore the effect the infraction has on the game.

(And it doesn't make sense to treat it as a punishment, because it punishes everyone in the game, including the mod.)

MariaR's quote is how I've always understood the rule about posting mod communications at MS.

IME modkills for Role PM posting often have had a punitive aspect - to punish the team of the offending player as a deterrent from breaking this rule at all.

As a fairly experienced mafia player, I nevertheless check with a game mod whenever I think something I want to post may be skirting the line, to be absolutely sure I'm on the right side of that line. And that definitely goes for paraphrasing my role in a high-flavor game.

My game rules contain "Questions are vastly preferable to modkills" for a reason -- I'd much rather look over something a player wants to post but isn't sure is ok, rather than deal with the fallout of an inadvertently rule-breaking post.

[Something_Smart]

IME modkills for Role PM posting often have had a punitive aspect - to punish the team of the offending player as a deterrent from breaking this rule at all.

I mean, this is what bans are for. There's no reason to punish innocent players and potentially wreck a game if there are other, less destructive punishment options available.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

infraction has not at all damaged the gamestate.

A moderator also has the responsibility to head off future damage to the game state.

If a player is able to clear themselves by quoting large sections of their role pm, there is then the incentive for other players to follow suit.

If such a mass quoting occurred - the game would be irreparably damaged as players would be examining the wording to figure out what was written by the moderator and what is fabricated - the game would no longer be about mafia, it would be word analysis.

Quoting Moderator communications has always been a no-no on this site

[jjh927]

infraction has not at all damaged the gamestate.

A moderator also has the responsibility to head off future damage to the game state.

If a player is able to clear themselves by quoting large sections of their role pm, there is then the incentive for other players to follow suit.

If such a mass quoting occurred - the game would be irreparably damaged as players would be examining the wording to figure out what was written by the moderator and what is fabricated - the game would no longer be about mafia, it would be word analysis.

Quoting Moderator communications has always been a no-no on this site

Right, but if a player is able to clear themselves by quoting large sections of their role PM then their HAS been damage to the gamestate. I'm talking about the situation where nobody even knows that they've used the same phrasing as the moderator

[Something_Smart]

I mean, it's pretty uncharitable to assume that an entire game will decide to break site rules just because the mod decided not to unnecessarily ruin the game.

[TemporalLich]

A player knows their own Role PM, so keep that in mind

[Lukewarm]

As someone who has an English degree, and both written and graded numerous papers - and also someone who has seen both the post and role pm - the post absolutely fails at its attempt to put the role pm in its own words. If you run the two through a plagiarism testing app, it flags it for plagiarism. So from an English major's perspective - regardless of whether there are quotation marks, or it being attributed to the mod, or even intent on behalf of the poster, the post quoted mod communication.

So from my PoV, it broke the rules as written. Maybe the rules should not be that way - I actually agree that the rule might need to get some refinement - but I understand why a mod would have turned to a listmod and why a listmod would rule for a modkill. Basically, I think it broke the rules, whether I agree with the rules or not.

[Lukewarm]

I am curious if you have found this to be a prevalent problem across the site, or if you only find this one example to have crossed a line? Are there other games that you are aware of that had modkills for this reason that you think were misruled?

That is actually the only game I have seen where someone was modkilled for this (admittedly, my personal sample size is on the small side).

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Players in the game can usually tell if a quoted role pm came from the moderator just by looking at their own role pm and comparing.

I don't think it's unreasonable for players in a game to do things if it works for others, if they see someone do ___ and get cleared, why would it be unreasonable to think such a move would be accepted?