Trigger Warning: Word Discussion: Gaslighting

[Guillotina]

I recently just finished Dogs v Cats mafia, a mostly excellently modded game by thestatusquo. We did have one point of contention and that was regarding the use of the word "gaslighting".

I felt that I was being gaslighted by some players in the game (accuracy is irrelevant for this discussion). I called them out on it. This triggered other players and they reported it to Shea (as is their right). Shea then asked me to stop using the word.

I disagreed with his decision but not to the point where I felt Shea should be reported. Shea was caught in a rock in a hard place. Some of his players clearly felt uncomfortable and Shea went with the decision that benefitted the majority.

I felt this was wrong for a few reasons

1) It prevented me from expressing my truth in the thread. We wouldn't censor people who accused another player of lying, so why is gaslighting different? It forced me to argue much less authenticly and that likely had a small part in me getting eliminated.

2) It's triggering to me to not be able to call out gaslighting as it takes me back to situations where I was unable to call out gaslighting in my marriage.

3) It permits the comfort of other players to dictate how players can speak. I wasn't insulting other players OoG. I merely called out what I perceived to be happening based off the info I had.

I'd like to know what can be done to prevent this situation again. Do we ban the word gaslighting so that everyone is on an even playing field or do we treat the word gaslighting like a subset of lying or do we do something else entirely.

Gaslighting is a manipulation technique, i dont understand why it can't be called out. It's like getting mad for people calling you scum and reporting it.

I say, Don't break the bubble, stop getting sensitive for being called out for gaslighting when you are in fact gaslighting. If you don't like the term then dont gaslight, plain in simple

[Alisae]

Ok so as someone who has
- maybe been gaslit by my dad to make me think that I wasn't feeling what I was actually feeling by calling me an actor (I don't remember if I was or wasn't but that's aside the point)
- been literally been told "they brainwashed you" by my mother when she caught me after I ran away from her because she didn't have my best interests in mind
- been gaslit by an individual online to the point where I don't even know anything about them anymore aside from the fact they're actually just poison
- literally the other day was told that I'm not worth educating about the game of yugioh by a guy who I thought was a friend because I see the game differently than he does.

I read the op and searched this game for gaslighting for some context to understand what exactly happened.

Now I would like to just remind everyone what gaslighting is.
Gaslighting is when you make someone question their sanity, reality, memory, or perceptions.
For example, being told that I'm not worth educating because I didn't just blindly sheep the popular opinion is gaslighting by trying to dismiss my concerns and questions about the popular opinion and make me think that I'm wrong because I don't agree with the majority, implying that the majority is right.

In the game of mafia, this is a tactic.
For example, when someone says that they're being gaslighted, a way to gaslight this person is to dismiss their concerns by saying that gaslighting a serious issue and problem in domestic abuse. This is gaslighting because it dismisses the other person's concerns and downplays them, while also making gaslighting sound like this terrible thing that isn't happening right now because it only occurs in domestic abuse.

With this out of the way
I agree with point 1 because being able to express your side of the story is important and if you really feel like that's what is happening to you, then it's the perfect word to use. Language is pretty limited as is so you kind of have to take what you can get. I do not think requesting the person who is claiming that they are getting gaslighted is ever a good idea.
I agree with point 2 for very obvious reasons. If I think someone is not aligned with me and they're trying to dismiss my concerns in this method and I thought it came from someone who was not aligned with me, then I would want to do everything in my power to make sure the guy flips.
I agree with point 3. It literally makes no sense to me why the other players should dictate how you speak.

Like it's just a tactic in the game. Doing something about it is stupid. Being told to not say you're being gaslighted just doesn't make sense to me.

[Alisae]

It seems to me that you are using the term "gaslighting" in a much broader sense than most people understand it. To me, gaslighting is manipulatively denying someone's perceptions to make them lose self-confidence or question their sanity. It seemed like you were using it in a case where people held different opinions from you.

I don't think that's gaslighting, because it's not malicious, and it's not disagreeing about objective facts. I may be wrong, but I think most people would agree with me on that.

I don't mean to minimize your experiences with your ex-husband, but I feel like you might be extra-sensitive to manipulative behaviors to the point where you sometimes misclassify normal behaviors as manipulative. (Which in a lot of situations is better than the reverse!)

There's not an easy answer to this-- for some people, getting accused of manipulation when they are acting normal could

itself feel manipulative

, so you can't really get free rein to make those accusations. But we don't want to completely deny you the ability to express it. Maybe a good compromise is to ask you to say how you feel more descriptively (e.g. rather than "you're gaslighting me!", say "I think my point of view makes sense and it's upsetting me that nobody else is seeing it").

A lot of this just boils down to "you're just imaging it" which is gaslighting.
It doesn't have to be malicious but it doesn't matter because it is malicious. It's malicious because you're dismissing her concerns and making them feel like they're not real.

Also, the end comes across as tone policing and in the end those 2 statements are literally the same.

[Alisae]

I was always intending for gaslighting to be someone intending to cause me to doubt reality. I didn't and don't feel the term should be exclusive to domestic abuse situations.

Yes you're right, it shouldn't and that's because it's not! It's something that happens in our day to day lives because people have a hard time communicating with one another when it comes to "is X correct or is it wrong and is Y correct." Like people don't know how to communicate, good communication is really fucking hard.

It looks like, if the mods comment at all, they will likely ban the word from use. Until then, I will as well. I just needed to know where the site stood on such a word as a whole so I knew what I was getting into next time. I'll still be here as much as I can.

I find it funny that this thread is how you reached this conclusion. I don't think this conclusion is correct and I think you should decide if this really is correct or not, because from your pov, it seems like you're implementing a policy that you disagree with and seems wrong because you think it's not exclusive but everyone else is telling you is exclusive. I think you should decide for yourself if it is exclusive or not based on your own experiences and decide if you should or should not allow the term in your games based off of that.

[Something_Smart]

A lot of this just boils down to "you're just imaging it" which is gaslighting.
It doesn't have to be malicious but it doesn't matter because it is malicious. It's malicious because you're dismissing her concerns and making them feel like they're not real.

I genuinely believe them to not be real and I genuinely am trying to help her. That could be misguided, but it isn't malicious.

And, I'm trying not to be malicious. I'm trying to understand why she thinks that way and bridge the gap between her and the people who think differently.

At the end of the day, she did something that at least some people find offensive, and most people agree was unwarranted. Even if she doesn't understand why it was a problem, it's still a problem, and I want to at least make an attempt to come to an understanding with her, because otherwise she'll just be banned from using the phrase without knowing why.

Also, the end comes across as tone policing and in the end those 2 statements are literally the same.

If they mean the same thing, that's great, it means she can get her point across without making other people feel like they are being compared to domestic abusers.

[Flea The Magician]

ok chipping in my bit as I was in that game as one of the multiballed minorities, and massively uncomfortable. I did object to the term being used, I did not ask Shea to step in as I am comfortable enough in his games to know he will step in when appropriate.

This also comes with the context I have Borderline Personality Disorder and Autism - and is my perspective.
NHS resources for BPD and Autism for those unfamiliar. I am also on some strong medication at the moment so apologies if any of this comes out making little sense or consistency.

I use a lot of words by strict definition, that means I also read them often in a strict definition.
This means that "Gaslighting" is strictly an abuse term (not just domestic), when PersonA attempts to undermine and manipulate a Person B's view of themselves, or events or people around themselves. Most often with intent to suppress and/or dominate.
As it was your true role, this could not have been the case, as you can verify quickly and easily to yourself and recognise that.

From my PoV, you had made a claim which your flavour did not match, and which didn't seem to fit within the games flavour at the time and that was where my attack was based and aimed.

People with Borderline have a bad reputation of being abusive and unstable, intentionally or otherwise and I try to make as much effort as possible to avoid being like that. The moment you made that declaring that you were being gaslit I went into an internal panic.

One of the issues with Borderline is I have a MASSIVE fear of hurting people, and abandonment, especially when its someone I have a lot of respect for, like Titus.
As I was involved in that series of events I spent a lot of time re-reading over what I'd said to you, what others had said to you, and span myself in circles repeatedly. I must've looked up the definition of several words used 100s of times just to double check I'd not used a word wrong.

As it was, it drained a lot out of me.

Manipulatory tactics are one thing - reads and meanings of results can be undermined, twisted and shifted by others. Your position in the game can be manipulated and undermined.
Your role PM cannot.

Also being gaslit into believing you're the one gaslighting leaves a hell of mental scar. #ThingsFleaWantsToForget

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'm not sure banning a word, or even a conglomerate of words will help with that, Flea. I'm not saying it won't help, but it seems like a moving target of "what words should I avoid to prevent harm to person X?"

[Flea The Magician]

Banning words never helps, is the thing.

Words are powerful, and choosing the right ones is always a challenge. I was just giving my side of that and why I think that was a bad term to use at the time.

[Something_Smart]

Manipulatory tactics are one thing - reads and meanings of results can be undermined, twisted and shifted by others. Your position in the game can be manipulated and undermined.
Your role PM cannot.

I agree with this. Accusing someone of lying, or doubting their honesty, isn't gaslighting. (With the usual caveat that I'm talking about how I understand the term, your understanding may differ, but I think mine is the common one.) Gaslighting is getting someone to doubt themself, and that means they have to trust you more than they trust themself.

Accusing someone of lying can absolutely be abusive or manipulative, but... this is a game about lying. It's a totally normal thing. And it sure feels unpleasant, but it doesn't mean that people are trying to harm you.

(And relative to what Alisae said, I'm not trying to be dismissive of Titus's concerns. Manipulative tactics are a fantastic thing to be on the lookout for, and it's perfectly fine to be worried about them, but once you have that feeling you should look for evidence supporting or refuting it. I'm trying to help that process by giving my opinion that the evidence probably refutes the claim. That's not dismissal.)

[Jake The Wolfie]

petition to ban lying in mafia

[NorwegianboyEE]

How disgusting. Imagine lying in a game of mafia.

[Flea The Magician]

I don't think the humorous approach is suitable here.
Just saying.

[Titus]

@Flea, Thank you for your posts. I'm sorry I caused you panic.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I don't think the humorous approach is suitable here.
Just saying.

I'm sorry, Flea. You are a wonderful scummer.

[Guillotina]

What people are forgetting is that once a game of mafia begins, we are inside a bubble. One thing is attacking the player and making it personal (this is never ok), another one is calling out a valid manipulative tactic within the bubble.

when I rand mafia, my job is turn the game upside down against town and use as many tactics to discredit your play, yes! including gaslighting your play!

If this is not ok with you, then it is time you move on and play another game, because this game is no longer for you.

[Flea The Magician]

Don't be, for one you weren't to know about that, and secondly you were saying how you felt at the time.
Just giving you context for why I wasn't overly pleased about it <3

[TemporalLich]

I think the main point that doesn't have a resolution is whether it is acceptable to gaslight in Mafia or not.

[Chara]

i think for me, the miscommunication was whether "this is gaslighting" means "you need to stop this behavior" in an out of game sense, or "i am being manipulated", which is a neutral statement in a mafia context. i took it as the former definition, which is why i requested a different term be used. Flea is right about language being messy. i think the general idea of gaslighting as a manipulation tactic (rather than as abuse) would be acceptable in mafia.

in any case i appreciate the thread's existence on the matter.

[Flea The Magician]

I think the main point that doesn't have a resolution is whether it is acceptable to gaslight in Mafia or not.

It is a part of it, as anything not town aligned you need to make sure reads are constantly called into question and often by whatever means you have at hand. If its by being dominating in thread and generally being the big alpha or if its by subtle manipulations. At some point that is going to fall under twisting reality around a player.

For example a cop gets a guilty but someone manages to convince them their sanity is questionable or claiming a miller to try and worm out of it.

Word selection comes in again, being gaslit is going to cause several rounds of upset, as opposed to saying "You're trying to change the context around X matter." and honestly I find the latter a lot harder for people to evade.


Something I'm seeing some parallel with here, is when people call bad-faith. I'm not shy about is forcefully engaging people who try to call bad-faith on me. I see that as someone attempting to undermine my read and actions, and expecting a disengage and shutting down the conversation. I hate that because it gives me no information at all and it debases any attempts or information I had or will make because I now have this moniker attached to my pushes.

[Guillotina]

I think the main point that doesn't have a resolution is whether it is acceptable to gaslight in Mafia or not.

It is a part of it, as anything not town aligned you need to make sure reads are constantly called into question and often by whatever means you have at hand. If its by being dominating in thread and generally being the big alpha or if its by subtle manipulations. At some point that is going to fall under twisting reality around a player.

For example a cop gets a guilty but someone manages to convince them their sanity is questionable or claiming a miller to try and worm out of it.

Word selection comes in again, being gaslit is going to cause several rounds of upset, as opposed to saying "You're trying to change the context around X matter." and honestly I find the latter a lot harder for people to evade.


Something I'm seeing some parallel with here, is when people call bad-faith. I'm not shy about is forcefully engaging people who try to call bad-faith on me. I see that as someone attempting to undermine my read and actions, and expecting a disengage and shutting down the conversation. I hate that because it gives me no information at all and it debases any attempts or information I had or will make because I now have this moniker attached to my pushes.

But it's the same thing in the end. Gaslight is shorter. I don't get why the word "Gaslight" is offensive and the meaning of gaslighting is not.

Ok, I propose we change "Gaslight" for "Morphing"... so in a game where you are trying to change the context of what I really posted, I will call you out for "Morphing" me.
Is this any less offensive knowing Morphing and Gaslight have the same exact meaning?

[Something_Smart]

I think the main point that doesn't have a resolution is whether it is acceptable to gaslight in Mafia or not.

I think the point is more about the definition of it.

How I understand it, it's basically impossible to truly gaslight in a mafia game, because it's an attempt to get someone to doubt their memory or perception for objective facts, but there's a record of everything that happens. If I insist something happened, and you tell me that it didn't, I don't have to freak out or doubt my own sanity or anything, I can just go back and look.

[Jake The Wolfie]

You could hypothetically gaslight them into thinking they gambited whem they said something when they in fact did not.

[Flea The Magician]

I think the main point that doesn't have a resolution is whether it is acceptable to gaslight in Mafia or not.

It is a part of it, as anything not town aligned you need to make sure reads are constantly called into question and often by whatever means you have at hand. If its by being dominating in thread and generally being the big alpha or if its by subtle manipulations. At some point that is going to fall under twisting reality around a player.

For example a cop gets a guilty but someone manages to convince them their sanity is questionable or claiming a miller to try and worm out of it.

Word selection comes in again, being gaslit is going to cause several rounds of upset, as opposed to saying "You're trying to change the context around X matter." and honestly I find the latter a lot harder for people to evade.


Something I'm seeing some parallel with here, is when people call bad-faith. I'm not shy about is forcefully engaging people who try to call bad-faith on me. I see that as someone attempting to undermine my read and actions, and expecting a disengage and shutting down the conversation. I hate that because it gives me no information at all and it debases any attempts or information I had or will make because I now have this moniker attached to my pushes.

But it's the same thing in the end. Gaslight is shorter. I don't get why the word "Gaslight" is offensive and the meaning of gaslighting is not.

Ok, I propose we change "Gaslight" for "Morphing"... so in a game where you are trying to change the context of what I really posted, I will call you out for "Morphing" me.
Is this any less offensive knowing Morphing and Gaslight have the same exact meaning?

Its not that gaslight is offensive, its that it's jarring and its attachment to abuse tactics. For me it was like being hit by a 40t wagon. Morphing as in your example doesn't have that abuse attachment to it and the visualisation of it is much less offensive for me and easier to process.

This is going back to the Autism thing with me, and part of why I say words are powerful.
Gaslighting invokes lots of heat and fire. fire consumes, and leaves nothing.
Morphing is actually a really good word, because it invokes wibbly stuff that is forcefully shifting meanings and definitions around an object.

If you've seen my alt account you'll have noticed I often use overly grand descriptive sentences, those were part experiment and part just me wanting to enjoy wordplay. The experiment was successful btw, the more descriptive sentences gained me more town reads and seemed to put people at ease, and when I switched to a more dominant tone using harder - not harsher - words everyone picked up immediately on the tonal shift. was fun! might bring that alt back :3

Again, this is all just from my perspective on it and I wouldn't dare to comment on how others feel/perceive things

[TemporalLich]

I think we can agree if gaslighting is acceptable in Mafia and calling out gaslighting is not acceptable we have an unfair and toxic strategy and the game of Mafia is unbalanced in favor of toxic players as you have a strategy for players to abuse other players with no recourse. That is a fact, not an opinion.

You could hypothetically gaslight them into thinking they gambited whem they said something when they in fact did not.

This would be an example of gaslighting, you are trying to manipulate a player's memory.

pedit: Morphing in this hypothetical scenario refers to changing people's context around reads, while gaslighting refers to making people question their reality. I do feel the mere act of questioning reads is not gaslighting, and twisting people's words is a separate manipulation tactic.

[Guillotina]

I think the main point that doesn't have a resolution is whether it is acceptable to gaslight in Mafia or not.

It is a part of it, as anything not town aligned you need to make sure reads are constantly called into question and often by whatever means you have at hand. If its by being dominating in thread and generally being the big alpha or if its by subtle manipulations. At some point that is going to fall under twisting reality around a player.

For example a cop gets a guilty but someone manages to convince them their sanity is questionable or claiming a miller to try and worm out of it.

Word selection comes in again, being gaslit is going to cause several rounds of upset, as opposed to saying "You're trying to change the context around X matter." and honestly I find the latter a lot harder for people to evade.


Something I'm seeing some parallel with here, is when people call bad-faith. I'm not shy about is forcefully engaging people who try to call bad-faith on me. I see that as someone attempting to undermine my read and actions, and expecting a disengage and shutting down the conversation. I hate that because it gives me no information at all and it debases any attempts or information I had or will make because I now have this moniker attached to my pushes.

But it's the same thing in the end. Gaslight is shorter. I don't get why the word "Gaslight" is offensive and the meaning of gaslighting is not.

Ok, I propose we change "Gaslight" for "Morphing"... so in a game where you are trying to change the context of what I really posted, I will call you out for "Morphing" me.
Is this any less offensive knowing Morphing and Gaslight have the same exact meaning?

Its not that gaslight is offensive, its that it's jarring and its attachment to abuse tactics. For me it was like being hit by a 40t wagon. Morphing as in your example doesn't have that abuse attachment to it and the visualisation of it is much less offensive for me and easier to process.

This is going back to the Autism thing with me, and part of why I say words are powerful.
Gaslighting invokes lots of heat and fire. fire consumes, and leaves nothing.
Morphing is actually a really good word, because it invokes wibbly stuff that is forcefully shifting meanings and definitions around an object.

If you've seen my alt account you'll have noticed I often use overly grand descriptive sentences, those were part experiment and part just me wanting to enjoy wordplay. The experiment was successful btw, the more descriptive sentences gained me more town reads and seemed to put people at ease, and when I switched to a more dominant tone using harder - not harsher - words everyone picked up immediately on the tonal shift. was fun! might bring that alt back :3

Again, this is all just from my perspective on it and I wouldn't dare to comment on how others feel/perceive things

I see, I get it now. The word triggers a traumatic memory. I understand now.

In that case I'm ok with changing the word for you. So whenever I use "Morphing" you know what I mean.