Mod action necessary for repeat flaking

[Nancy Drew 39]

This thread seems to never ever get made, so before yet another one complaining about replace outs happens again, why aren’t more people penalized for doing this unless rl or actual internet issues are to blame?

This is the official policy of MU, why not on MS?

[T3]

I don't think there is an official policy but when stuff like that happens action is usually taken. [from what I've seen]

[Nancy Drew 39]

I don't think there is an official policy but when stuff like that happens action is usually taken. [from what I've seen]

My point is it should be because far more games go to shit as a result of repeat flaking than replace outs. When a slot is left for days in games with no prods/replacements/no action of any kind on either the part of the player or game mod, it absolutely hurts the game and is extremely unfair to the players who signed up to play and are actively trying to play, so something ought to be done about that.

[Gamma Emerald]

I would probably end up on the wrong end of that sort of rule if it existed, idk if I'm gonna have another point where I straight up cannot play and fail to effectively pull myself but it's certainly possible unless I can somehow basically cut out all things from my life that aren't mafia (which just ain't happening)

[Ircher]

+1 though I don't think it's really a big issue on MS. We have flakers, but most are one and gone.

[Jake The Wolfie]

This is the official policy of MU, why not on MS?

You See, Mafia Universe is fundamentally crappy, so we are taking preventative steps to avoid becoming them. One of them is by by unofficially punishing moderators.

I don't see any reason for this to not become official policy. I guess no one has ever brought it up before.

[Nero Cain]

This thread seems to never ever get made, so before yet another one complaining about replace outs happens again, why aren’t more people penalized for doing this unless rl or actual internet issues are to blame?

This is the official policy of MU, why not on MS?

If we penalized ppl for flaking then who'd be left to play?!?

I agree with you in the sense serial flakes should be punished but it might be seen as some kind of invasion of privacy or something if we start asking people why they flaked.

but I think this is mostly self-resolving? Like I'm pretty sure Yume ate a site bam or something.

It's not nearly as common as it used to be (or maybe it still is) but mods can and would deny entry to serial flakes.

but the newest fad is if you get prodded 3 times in a game you are force replaced so like maybe we should make a thing where if you are force replaced 3 times you get like a month ban or something and then 3 bans for flaking you get a year.

[Something_Smart]

As someone who never flakes out of games, I'm obviously biased, but I do feel that it's a commitment that can be reasonably upheld. Barring extreme circumstances, you should be able to at least notify the mod if you will no longer have time to play.

I think a penalty for flaking out of games would be pretty reasonable, though I don't know if it would actually help anything, because it's really hard for me to understand why someone would flake out at all (unless they're a new player who completely forgot about the site).

[lilith2013]

We do penalize people for excessive flaking or replacing out - if you search the ban thread for "replacing," there are several results detailing restrictions we have placed on users for excessive replacing out in the past. unfortunately we are not omniscient and have to rely somewhat on reports of this occurring in order to be aware of a large pattern emerging. on my end, I try to keep an eye on the replacement request queue for any names coming up a lot, which is admittedly not a perfect proxy; as far as I'm aware, there aren't any players in recent history who would be penalized for excessive replacement. if you see people flaking out or replacing out of games repeatedly, then please report it so we can take appropriate action.

[Nancy Drew 39]

This thread seems to never ever get made, so before yet another one complaining about replace outs happens again, why aren’t more people penalized for doing this unless rl or actual internet issues are to blame?

This is the official policy of MU, why not on MS?

If we penalized ppl for flaking then who'd be left to play?!?

I agree with you in the sense serial flakes should be punished but it might be seen as some kind of invasion of privacy or something if we start asking people why they flaked.

but I think this is mostly self-resolving? Like I'm pretty sure Yume ate a site bam or something.

It's not nearly as common as it used to be (or maybe it still is) but mods can and would deny entry to serial flakes.

but the newest fad is if you get prodded 3 times in a game you are force replaced so like maybe we should make a thing where if you are force replaced 3 times you get like a month ban or something and then 3 bans for flaking you get a year.

Yes but unfortunately not all game mods are always on top of this and even when they are. it’s extremely annoying to have to wait for a player - who has a prior history of doing this in past games, drag the game out - which deprives the rest of the playerlist valuable info about their slot. This is particularly problematic in smaller games with less players.

[Nancy Drew 39]

As someone who never flakes out of games, I'm obviously biased, but I do feel that it's a commitment that can be reasonably upheld. Barring extreme circumstances, you should be able to at least notify the mod if you will no longer have time to play.

I think a penalty for flaking out of games would be pretty reasonable, though I don't know if it would actually help anything, because it's really hard for me to understand why someone would flake out at all (unless they're a new player who completely forgot about the site).

Well, it would deter serial flakers, which is whom I’m most concerned about. Exactly! I don’t think I’ve ever flaked once on this site unless it literally involved internet or rl issues that could not be helped and even then I did my due diligence in trying to keep the game mod apprised of that. I have flaked on another site - not MU because of extreme formatting frustrations but that obviously isn’t a problem for me on this site.

[Nancy Drew 39]

We do penalize people for excessive flaking or replacing out - if you search the ban thread for "replacing," there are several results detailing restrictions we have placed on users for excessive replacing out in the past. unfortunately we are not omniscient and have to rely somewhat on reports of this occurring in order to be aware of a large pattern emerging. on my end, I try to keep an eye on the replacement request queue for any names coming up a lot, which is admittedly not a perfect proxy; as far as I'm aware, there aren't any players in recent history who would be penalized for excessive replacement. if you see people flaking out or replacing out of games repeatedly, then please report it so we can take appropriate action.

Yes excessive replacing out can also be a problem as well but I view excessive serial flaking as essentially extremely disrespectful to both the game mod and other players and if you’re onsite and literally ignore three subsequent prods, you clearly don’t want to be in said game anyway, so why not just let the mod know and spare them from having to go through all that? Perhaps a database of players who do either excessively might possibly be worth looking in to?

[Ythan]

No strong feelings one way or the other but interested to see how people feel.

[House]

When flaking becomes habitual, it should be an actionable offense. It is incredibly disrespectful not just to the game mod, but also the players to just ditch one game after another.

Who wants to share a player list with someone who can't show the slightest modicum of courtesy so the moderator can minimize the time that slot is vacant? I don't.

[T-Bone]

Excessive replacing out whether by choice or by force is against the rules and has been enforced. But we are not omniscient and it takes the cooperation of the community to help identify if there is someone really doing that. The worst monitors the replacements queue and has an easy line to the rest of us if he notices.

No one has been banned for it in recent memory cause no one has done it in recent memory lol

[Nancy Drew 39]

Excessive replacing out whether by choice or by force is against the rules and has been enforced. But we are not omniscient and it takes the cooperation of the community to help identify if there is someone really doing that. The worst monitors the replacements queue and has an easy line to the rest of us if he notices.

No one has been banned for it in recent memory cause no one has done it in recent memory lol

When flaking becomes habitual, it should be an actionable offense. It is incredibly disrespectful not just to the game mod, but also the players to just ditch one game after another.

Who wants to share a player list with someone who can't show the slightest modicum of courtesy so the moderator can minimize the time that slot is vacant? I don't.

+1

@mods, this thread is specifically about the problem of excessive or serial flaking, replacing out of games is not the actual topic of this discussion, because a slot doesn’t remain vacant in that case.

[T-Bone]

Someone flaking would be replaced, yeah? So the effect would be the same.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Someone flaking would be replaced, yeah? So the effect would be the same.

Only after having received three prods.

[Ircher]

Someone flaking would be replaced, yeah? So the effect would be the same.

Yes, but the moderators seem to treat flaking as the same severity as a normal replace out. This thread is advocating for there to be a distinction between the two with unannounced flaking having more severe consequences than replacing with notice.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Someone flaking would be replaced, yeah? So the effect would be the same.

Yes, but the moderators seem to treat flaking as the same severity as a normal replace out. This thread is advocating for there to be a distinction between the two with unannounced flaking having more severe consequences than replacing with notice.

+1

Well, especially in the case of frequent serial flaking anyway. It really really hurts games when a slot relains vacant for too long. This situation can almost potentially break a game if more than one player at a time is doing this concurrently.

[KittyTacky]

I flaked out of my verrrrrrry first game back in like 2018 or 2019. Came back two years later... would have sucked to be punished for it, but I agree that serial flakers should be first warned, then banned if they continue.

[redtea]

I think a rule as a deterrent might not be a bad idea? Like nero said, flake three times and get a ban.

I know I've had issues of serial flaking in the past, so a rule that makes you think more about what you can reasonably take on might be good. I had a lot of trouble gauging that + my level of social/general anxiety at the time made contacting mods to be replaced out difficult for me, and a hard and fast rule like that might've made me think more about if I could really take on a game, or pushed me to contact the mod for a replacement.

I don't know how well it'd work but maybe it's worth trying.

[redtea]

maybe the number of flakes allowed after a ban decreases- two flakes and a ban next time.

But I suppose at that point you might have to have some kind of formal system in place to keep track of all that

[lilith2013]

Game mods are already able to prod and force replace basically at will, and it’s unlikely that listmods would become aware of someone flaking before game mods so it doesn’t seem very reasonable at the individual game level to depend on listmods for action. Game mods are the first line of defense, essentially.

I don’t really think that we need to or should treat flaking out differently than someone being replaced out. First, what constitutes “flaking” is very subjective - is it X days without posting? Then the game mod’s ability to force replace and excessive replacement penalties should cover this. Is it making fewer than X posts within Y days? What if those posts are full of content? Then is it fewer than X posts with content within Y days? What do we consider to be valid content? It’s much more straightforward to determine that someone has been excessively replaced than to try to make a value judgment on whether or not they have met the criteria of flaking, and because of that I think excessive replacements is, although not perfect, fine as a proxy for flaking. If someone has flaked out of games and is being penalized for excessive replaceouts, how much harsher is the penalty supposed to be or how would the penalty be substantially different to such an extent that we need to consider flaking as an entirely different offense from excessive replacements? And why should someone’s personal circumstances change the severity of the penalty?

Finally, I haven’t seen any reports about a player flaking in my time so far. So it doesn’t really matter what discussion we’re having about flaking if no one is reporting it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I’m not aware that flaking is even reportable at this time? With all due respect, the entire point of what I and other people are arguing is that they would prefer a player replace out before needing to undergo 3 prods if they really don’t intend to continue with the game. I’m not concerned with players who miss prods for good faith reasons but still intend to continue the game. What my issue is with players who opt out of games by flaking in lieu of replacing out, so I think penalizing serial replacing out actually worsens the problem and encourages flaking, which is clearly much much more destabilizing to any ongoing game.