The Newbie Queue Setup

[RadiantCowbells]

i think if we're going that route it would be better to sim the games

[Gypyx]

wdym by "sim"?

[Ythan]

Make computers play it and see how they do.

[Gypyx]

hmmm

i guess that's supposed to be a bad thing?

[Ythan]

I was kinda joking but only kinda, I believe RC is talking about mathematically calculating the likelihoods of potential outcomes. And I don't think it's a bad thing.

[Gypyx]

huh, maybe yeah, although it's maybe a bit complicated for a setup that's supposed to be quick & easy to fire

[Cook]

i'd be willing to think/pseudocode this

[Gypyx]

yeah so did some testing with some semi randomly thought out point values from the basic roles list, and it like doesn't seem too bad so far ? don't have the skills to create a general testing thingy tho

Spoiler:

4 points by default

Vanilla : 0
Cop - 4
Doctor - 3
Roleblocker - 2
Mason - goes by a pair, can't be with anything else
Tracker - 3
Jailkeeper - 4
Role Cop - 2
Friendly Neighbor - 3
(mandatory 1-shot) Bulletproof - 2
Fruit Vendor - 3
Neapolitan - 3
Vanilla Cop - 1
1-shot (take a random 3 points or less role) ; 1


rand one from these

Mafia Goon : 0
Mafia Goon : 0
Mafia Roleblocker : -2
Mafia Rolecop : -1


banned combinations :
any of the following together : Cop (1-shot Excluded) / Jailkeeper / Roleblocker / Tracker

test setups :

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon

Town Rolecop
Town Vanilla Cop
Town Fruit Vendor
VT*4

///

Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon

Town Doctor
Town Roleblocker
vt*5

///

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Town Vanilla Cop
Town 1-shot Doctor
Town 1-shot Bulletproof

///

Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon

Town Fruit Vendor
Town 1-shot Bulletproof
vt*5

///

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Town Tracker
Town 1-shot Rolecop
vt*5

///

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon

Town Mason
Town Mason
vt*5

[Cook]

let me think about an if then structure

[Not Known 15]

yeah so did some testing with some semi randomly thought out point values from the basic roles list, and it like doesn't seem too bad so far ? don't have the skills to create a general testing thingy tho

Spoiler:

4 points by default

Vanilla : 0
Cop - 4
Doctor - 3
Roleblocker - 2
Mason - goes by a pair, can't be with anything else
Tracker - 3
Jailkeeper - 4
Role Cop - 2
Friendly Neighbor - 3
(mandatory 1-shot) Bulletproof - 2
Fruit Vendor - 3
Neapolitan - 3
Vanilla Cop - 1
1-shot (take a random 3 points or less role) ; 1


rand one from these

Mafia Goon : 0
Mafia Goon : 0
Mafia Roleblocker : -2
Mafia Rolecop : -1


banned combinations :
any of the following together : Cop (1-shot Excluded) / Jailkeeper / Roleblocker / Tracker

test setups :

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon

Town Rolecop
Town Vanilla Cop
Town Fruit Vendor
VT*4

///

Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon

Town Doctor
Town Roleblocker
vt*5

///

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Town Vanilla Cop
Town 1-shot Doctor
Town 1-shot Bulletproof

///

Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon

Town Fruit Vendor
Town 1-shot Bulletproof
vt*5

///

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Town Tracker
Town 1-shot Rolecop
vt*5

///

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon

Town Mason
Town Mason
vt*5

The following combinations probably should be banned:
Mason Mason vs Rolecop(too scumsided)
Rolecop/1-shot Friendly Neighbor/Roleblocker/Vanilla Cop vs Roleblocker
and
Rolecop/Roleblocker/1-shot Fruit Vendor/Vanilla Cop vs Roleblocker

[Cook]

here's the setup sketch:

7

Town

2

Mafia

We start by adding 4 VTs and a Goon.

First roll is 1d3 to determine the scum PR

1. Goon (no bonus budget)
2. Rolecop (1 bonus point)
3. Roleblocker (2 bonus points)

Next we roll 3d15 to determine the town's power roles. We have initially a PR budget of 4. This number was modified by the scum PR roll.

1. vanilla (costs no points)
2. cop (costs 4 points)
3. tracker (costs 3 points)
4. vanilla cop (costs 1 point)
5. neapolitan (costs 3 points)
6. role cop (costs 2 points)
7. doctor (costs 3 points)
8. jailkeeper (costs 4 points)
9. roleblocker (costs 2 points)
10. bulletproof* (costs 3 points)
11. mason pair** (costs 4 points)
12. friendly neighbor (costs 3 points)
13. fruit vendor (costs 3 points)
14. reroll as 1-shot (decreases cost by 1 point)
15. reroll as 2-shot (cost is unchanged)

*this role automatically rolls as 1-shot, and, therefore, costs only 2 points.
**if town can afford masons then all other town rolls are discarded.

Naturally, it's unlikely we can actually afford the random rolls (for instance, a rolecop {+1} vs. neap {3}, fruit vendor {2}, and masons {4} puts us at -4 budget.)

To fix this we discard the PR rolls from most recent to least recent until we're under budget.

In this case, we get rid of the masons roll.

Now we have rolecop vs neap and fruit vendor, which balances evenly.

thus, our setup is:

1

Mafia Goon

1

Mafia Rolecop

1

Town Neapolitan

1

Town Fruit Vendor

5

Vanilla Townies

[TemporalLich]

you realise a 1s vanilla cop costs zero points right?

with strange RNG a setup with all townies being 1s vanilla cops is possible

[RadiantCowbells]

that's a really poor way to do things because it doesn't consider interactions at all

[Ircher]

you realise a 1s vanilla cop costs zero points right?

with strange RNG a setup with all townies being 1s vanilla cops is possible

This doesn't appear to be possible because it seems town only gets three chances at PRs. On the other hand, the absurdity that is 7x VTs vs. 2 Goons is possible. I really don't think a randomly generated setup is going to work well.

[Cook]

this idea can be tweaked

[RadiantCowbells]

i already have a program that can sim an incomplete set of normal roles and give a reasonable estimate of winrate based on actual interactions
if we're going down the road of generating setups I could expand it to generate setups that fit whatever winrate and setup parameters that we define
this point system will end up creating a ton of very poorly designed and mismatched setups

[RadiantCowbells]

i already have a program that can sim an incomplete set of normal roles and give a reasonable estimate of winrate based on actual interactions
if we're going down the road of generating setups I could expand it to generate setups that fit whatever winrate and setup parameters that we define
this point system will end up creating a ton of very poorly designed and mismatched setups

[Cook]

you realise a 1s vanilla cop costs zero points right?

with strange RNG a setup with all townies being 1s vanilla cops is possible

This doesn't appear to be possible because it seems town only gets three chances at PRs. On the other hand, the absurdity that is 7x VTs vs. 2 Goons is possible. I really don't think a randomly generated setup is going to work well.

remove the potential vanilla from the die

and now town is guaranteed a PR

decrease the budget normally to 3

and now we can't have cop9 or JK9 and mafia

has

to have a PR for any of those to generate

[TemporalLich]

cop + doctor adds an extra point for follow the cop

[RadiantCowbells]

To do even a small list of roles like this is going to end up with either poorly balanced setups or lots of variables to the point that the setup will be extremely complicated to implement

This point system is very poorly thought out unless you're only allowing like 5 town roles and 2 spy roles, in which case I don't see what the value is in moving beyond the current system

[RadiantCowbells]

Also, like, a lot of how we get users is through exporting stuff to small offsite mafia games and then people taking interest and eventually coming over. NewD3 is fairly commonly played on small mafia sites, as was Matrix6 before it.
Regardless of what Penguin says about balance if we end up with a newbie game that is generally agreed to be poorly balanced that will hinder it being taken up on other sites which will reduce the inflow of traffic which, etc.

[Cook]

cop + doctor adds an extra point for follow the cop

in this config cop + doc cannot roll without one or the other having X-shot

[Gypyx]

Also, like, a lot of how we get users is through exporting stuff to small offsite mafia games and then people taking interest and eventually coming over. NewD3 is fairly commonly played on small mafia sites, as was Matrix6 before it.
Regardless of what Penguin says about balance if we end up with a newbie game that is generally agreed to be poorly balanced that will hinder it being taken up on other sites which will reduce the inflow of traffic which, etc.

that's fair

finding a new newbie setup is a bad idea though if what you're saying is true

[Ythan]

Also, like, a lot of how we get users is through exporting stuff to small offsite mafia games and then people taking interest and eventually coming over. NewD3 is fairly commonly played on small mafia sites, as was Matrix6 before it.
Regardless of what Penguin says about balance if we end up with a newbie game that is generally agreed to be poorly balanced that will hinder it being taken up on other sites which will reduce the inflow of traffic which, etc.

Wow fascinating did not know this.

[PenguinPower]

Also, like, a lot of how we get users is through exporting stuff to small offsite mafia games and then people taking interest and eventually coming over. NewD3 is fairly commonly played on small mafia sites, as was Matrix6 before it.
Regardless of what Penguin says about balance if we end up with a newbie game that is generally agreed to be poorly balanced that will hinder it being taken up on other sites which will reduce the inflow of traffic which, etc.

I did include balance as a focus, but achieving perfect balance is secondary to a setup that people want to play. If we can get both, great!

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting your referral information, but it doesn't jive with the the user reported reasons from newbie accounts over the previous 18 months.