Mafia Normal Project: Role + Modifer Mod/Player FAQ

[DkKoba]

Hey! So in a recent game I made a mod error relating to a modifier that works differently in Normal games than other mafia games - and also a few other past questions and stuff came to mind in terms of Things That Are Not Clear about roles/modifiers in Normal games.

I'd like to compile a list of questions/answers to these so that people who are new to normals/modding normals might have a guide that helps(or even people experienced in both who are unsure about an obscure facet of normal games!)

I have created a google document to keep track of all this
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ubD ... sp=sharing

Post your own questions/answers or obscure role/modifier info you feel might be unclear to others!

Also any role/modifier that works differently than expected in other places!

(also with this we can help create standardized role PM formats that include this info that is important.

[DkKoba]

I will start - Can a multitasking commuter role that includes a visiting role utilize it's commute *and* its ability?

Does a neighborizer start with their own PT open to write in, so say if they were to die N1, the person they neighborize sees all their notes?

[Ircher]

I have quite a few things about backup interactions saved for reference purposes: 1) Backups do not inherit modifiers (except Universal Backups which DO inherit modifiers) 2) Universal Backups always flip both initial and inherited roles and 3) An X-Shot Backup starts with that many shots; they do not inherit the remaining shots from the original player. On the other hand, universal backups DO inherit remaining shots.

[DkKoba]

I have quite a few things about backup interactions saved for reference purposes: 1) Backups do not inherit modifiers 2) Universal Backups always flip both initial and inherited roles and 3) An X-Shot Backup starts with that many shots; they do not inherit the remaining shots from the original player. On the other hand, universal backups DO inherit remaining shots.

This is extremely helpful thank you!!

[TemporalLich]

think of it like this:

Backup is a

modifier

, it modifies the attached role to be only usable when a role of that type exists. If a 1-shot Loyal Doctor dies, a Nurse (special name for a Backup Doctor) gains a now ungated and non-Loyal Doctor ability. A 1-shot Nurse has a 1-shot ability even if the Doctor already used a shot.

Universal Backup is a

passive role

, it can receive modifiers that make sense for passive roles but it will inherit the modifiers (and used shots!) from the role that died. If a 1-shot Doctor that is depleted dies, the UB will be depleted. I'd assume an Even Night UB that inherits an ungated Cop can start cop checking on even and odd nights.

A UB related question: Is there a non-random way to resolve a UB inheritance when multiple players that a UB can inherit from die during the Night?

Extreme minutia: Would a Backup UB become able to inherit a role when a UB inherits a role?

[TemporalLich]

I'd also like to point out that a Bodyguard doesn't redirect kills, but merely dies from a successful protect.

Also BG + Doctor is an unbreakable circle protect (if the Doctor gets targeted, the BG takes the bullet but then gets healed, if the BG gets targeted the BG gets healed), and I'd personally resolve a BG + BG circle protect as the BG that wasn't targeted by the kill dying (I think this is how Reasonable Action Resolution resolves it? - it cuts off infinite loops by disallowing the same exact reason to appear more than once in action resolution).

[Cook]

ego

activated turns passives into active abilities

loyal is an active ability only modifier

ergo

activated loyal neighbor

how does it work

[lendunistus]

Does a neighborizer start with their own PT open to write in, so say if they were to die N1, the person they neighborize sees all their notes?

a neighborizer DOES start with their own PT that they can post to and neighborization resolves before kills according to NAR, so if they were to die N1 but still target someone, that someone could still read their notes

[OkaPoka]

is a backup joat legal

[Ircher]

A UB related question: Is there a non-random way to resolve a UB inheritance when multiple players that a UB can inherit from die during the Night?

You shouldn't be resolving actions randomly in a normal. (This is why compulsive is normalized as it is.) Anyway, the setup designer is supposed to (during the review process) specify some sort of priority system to resolve this.

is a backup joat legal

I don't see why something like Backup JOAT (Cop, Doctor, Vigilante) wouldn't be, but if you mean a generic backup JOAT that inherits any kind of JOAT, the answer would be no.

[DkKoba]

Itd be funnier if they just became a joat

[Cook]

the way you'd probably do it is JOAT (Backup Cop, Backup Doctor, Backup Vigilante) if you want them to have multiple x-shots

[Gamma Emerald]

I think using NAR to break ties for UB seems like a “sensible” option

[Ythan]

Good thread ego

[implosion]

This is a good thread; I will say that there are many situations in normal games that aren't really possible to resolve without some amount of ambiguity/having to just pick an interpretation. Some answers in no particular order:

activated loyal neighbor

how does it work

There are certain semantic rules around how some modifiers can be applied that aren't explicitly stated anywhere, but they follow sort of "obvious" english syntax rules.

"activated" here is being applied to "neighbor", but the "activated" modifier can only be applied to passives that it makes sense to activate. Neighbor does not, because "activating" a neighbor modifier doesn't make sense; the only thing it could mean is to add or revoke access to the neighbor topic, but the status of "neighbor" applies during the day and night phases, not during action resolution as other activated roles (like bulleptoof or ascetic) do. So it doesn't make sense, the only roles you can apply "activated" to are those that have some role within action resolution. *technically* neighbor does have a role during action resolution (for e.g. PT cops) but I think I'd rule this as not allowed.

"loyal" similarly has semantics: it can only be applied to roles that target a player. Ergo, a loyal activated bulletproof is not a legal role, because activated bulletproof is not a role that can target a player.

I'm not certain on neighborizer; I believe they don't start with access to a PT and that it's created upon successful neighborization, because it's an active role and not a passive one. But another NRG member might disagree with me here.

is a backup joat legal

"Backup Jack of All Trades" is not a legal role, because "Jack of all trades" is not a legal role and "backup" has the semantics that TemporalLich described. "Backup Jack of All Trades (Tracker, Watcher)" is definitely a legal role, but I believe it would only activate when a Jack of all Trades (Tracker, Watcher) dies, rather than any JoAT at all. So basically what Ircher said. While I'm on the subject, note the difference between a loyal backup doctor (if any doctor dies, they become a loyal doctor) and a backup loyal doctor (if any loyal doctor dies, they become a loyal doctor. This would include e.g. a loyal 1-shot doctor). You can think of there as being hidden parentheses, e.g. loyal (backup doctor) vs backup (loyal doctor).

The standard for UB in setups where it's possible for multiple players to die simultaneously is currently that the setup designer specifies an order for those roles to be inherited. It's not perfect.

[TemporalLich]

Activated Neighbor would make the most sense if it were to activate for the next cycle (if you activate N1, you have Neighbor access D2 and N2) imo.

Disclaimer: I am using Theme logic and should not be considered someone who knows how Normals work. I ran a Normal with a 1-shot Ascetic and a different Normal with a Neighbor Enabler

I am pretty sure this would not work in a Normal but that's the way I'd expect an Activated Neighbor to work.

[implosion]

Yeah, I agree both that that’s what it would do and that it doesn’t make sense for it to be that way in normals, hence thinking it’s not a valid normal role.

[mastina]

Also BG + Doctor is an unbreakable circle protect (if the Doctor gets targeted, the BG takes the bullet but then gets healed, if the BG gets targeted the BG gets healed), and I'd personally resolve a BG + BG circle protect as the BG that wasn't targeted by the kill dying (I think this is how Reasonable Action Resolution resolves it? - it cuts off infinite loops by disallowing the same exact reason to appear more than once in action resolution).

Actually, there isn't any protective loops, assuming competent wording when writing role PMs (semantics are IMPORTANT in role PMs!)--if you think there is, that's mod error.

A bodyguard can be worded as something along the lines of, "if your target were to be nightkilled, you will prevent them from being killed. If you successfully protect them, you will die." Instantly, this breaks a BG-BG loop. (It also breaks the BG-rolestopper loop, too. And is a component in breaking the BG-Doctor loop.)

A doctor can be worded as something along the lines of, "you will protect your target from one nightkill attempt". Instantly, this wording breaks a BG-Doctor loop. Because a bodyguard, as you said, is not a redirect role. A bodyguard protecting a player is not being directly shot at. Ergo, any attempts to protect the bodyguard from a direct shot will not save the bodyguard from being killed when the bodyguard successfully protects.

[TemporalLich]

BG death is a standard death though? I used the wording "Each night, you may protect another player from a single kill, however you will die if you successfully protect against a kill." in my last Normal for a BG. Note the intentional lack of the word "unavoidably". BG death can be protected against, and that setup also had a Roaming Doctor (which would allow the circle protect to work only once).

As for rolestopper + BG I would assume that is also a circle protect but someone could nitpick that to not be a circle protect (likely with the reasoning of "bodyguard death isn't technically an ability") and it's better if Bodyguard worked consistently imo.

[TemporalLich]

If you're going to say that BG death is unavoidable, please consider how that would affect a Multitasking Bodyguard Commuter or a Combined Bodyguard Commuter - the latter would not be effectively the same thing as a Combined Doctor Commuter if BG death is unavoidable.

[DkKoba]

Ok - what does a gunsmith see when checking:
Mafia Combined Doctor Cop
Mafia Traitor Cop

also - can a multitasking commuter cop commute and check someone the same night? (Theoretical role, i know itd never exist

[ChaosOmega]

Ok - what does a gunsmith see when checking:
Mafia Combined Doctor Cop
Mafia Traitor Cop

also - can a multitasking commuter cop commute and check someone the same night? (Theoretical role, i know itd never exist

A gunsmith would get a positive result from both. Gunsmith sees a gun on cops, and they are both cops.

I would say no to the 2nd one. The Wiki says "The Commuter is a role that "leaves Town" each Night, thus making them ineligible to be targeted by Night actions. By extension, they cannot use any other Night actions they may have."

[mastina]

BG death is a standard death though?

It

can

be if you word it that way.
It

shouldn't

be, if you want to word it the smart way which actually breaks the loop.

Which, again, is why semantics in a role is important.

If you're going to say that BG death is unavoidable, please consider how that would affect a Multitasking Bodyguard Commuter or a Combined Bodyguard Commuter - the latter would not be effectively the same thing as a Combined Doctor Commuter if BG death is unavoidable.

A multitasking/combined bodyguard-commuter would be untargetable by any and all actions when commuting, but still serve as a protective role, and upon successfully protecting, would die.

Commuting doesn't protect against death; it protects against the players trying to kill them. Important distinction. A commuting role could still die if they were, for instance, Weak and a combined/multitasking Weak role that targeted scum.

[mastina]

also - can a multitasking commuter cop commute and check someone the same night? (Theoretical role, i know itd never exist

By virtue of being multitasking, explicitly so, yes.

Would it ever pass review?

Explicitly not, for obvious reasons.

So it's the kind of theoretical interaction that is theoretically legal by the rules but which a reviewer will 100% always veto.

That said, a multitasking commuter + some other role not busted by virtue of being able to commute every night? Very well

could

pass review, and would in fact be able to both commute and act.

[TemporalLich]

anyone who wants to include Combined Bodyguard Commuter (please don't make this an ungated role)

in a theme

could just insert the operating word "unavoidable" to actually make it work the way it should.

Since the greylist is gone, that is not possible with the Normal Bodyguard, which is treated as a normal death that can be protected from (this is implicit on the wiki page, especially with the intro using the same word in "However, if the protected player is supposed to be

killed

, the Bodyguard is

killed

instead ("taking the bullet" for them, as it were)." (emphasis added))