Some Musings About Mafia Theory

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Some Musings About Mafia Theory

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:22 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

I feel somewhat inspired to write down some of my thoughts now that I've had quite a bit of time to think about things, so I'll give it another try to explain my views on the game. To those who weren't around when I was active, I've been playing on and off (mostly off) on this site for over a decade, with the time period I was at my strongest (and when I was putting much more into altering my playstyle as well as trying to study the game itself) being around 2017-2019.

TOWN:

- The practical win condition of town is to simplify the game into a state where it is impossible for the mafia team to be able to prevent themselves from all being eliminated. Nothing else truly matters for town except for reaching this state.
- This functionally means that it is not always correct to kill who you think is mafia during the day, which is increasingly more likely to be correct the earlier in the game it is.
- There is no practical downside to eliminating town early on in the game, especially if you're eliminating players that are more likely to be automatic eliminations later on in the game and/or major distractions. The first mafia death is the highest potential swing in momentum in mafia, but it has exponentially more value the later on in the game it is.
- It is far more important to remove obstacles for town from coming to the correct solve later in the game than to eliminate mafia. This gives the mafia fewer opportunities to manipulate the town into eliminating themselves later in the game after all the players that either had correct reads or were holding town together are no longer alive.
- The mafia rely on 'resources' in order to secure enough miselims to win the game. Whether it's players that are always going to be at risk of being removed by default, personality clashes that will become a major distraction, or really anything that indicates town will look to push on other town or will actively not work with each other. Mafia have to lean on their resources to further their win condition, so removing them will give them fewer options to work with.
- Removing these 'resources' by resolving the conflicts via removing them from the game or convincing them in some other way is the primary way to further your win condition. If you have scumreads that also does this, then you can effectively double dip on it.
- Cop roles are most often effective for clearing slots that are good default eliminations or targets that are likely going to be targets several days in the future. Vigilante roles are most often useful on targets that are likely to be eliminated the next day or the slots that are causing the most problems during the day. Trying to snipe mafia reads are rarely useful in a practical sense.
- Not using your limited abilities until well into the midgame is often correct, especially if you have an ability that doesn't lose value over time (like traffic analyst). Information swings are far more potent once the early game is over.
- Eliminating mafia day one is often a disadvantage to town, rather than an advantage. Any scumteam worth their salt will neutralize the numbers advantage unless there's a severe skill gap or town get incredibly lucky, town very commonly will get more complacent since they are winning, and the mafia will very often get more resources to work with than they otherwise would since town is very likely to get a lot more confident in incorrect reads.

MAFIA

- You only need a baseline of being able to think through plausible ways of looking at the game from a perspective of somebody who doesn't know anyone's alignment to be an acceptable mafia player. Being able to emulate how you sound and act as town is often enough to be a great mafia player if you know how to play around what town is doing.
- Your key to success is utilizing town's lack of information to push them towards believing that the wrong ideas and reads are correct.
- You rarely need to be elaborate with whatever you're doing. The simplest plans are often more than enough, you simply need to do the bare minimum and stick your neck out only when you either need to or when there's a distinct advantage to it.
- Don't utilize your biggest resources unless you either have to in order to win or you will gain a lot of ground with it. If there's players that are causing a lot of problems for town, they're far better to you alive than as a corpse, or if there's a massive tunnel war between two players happening.
- Individual reads on you rarely are much of a threat. You can be townread by virtually nobody for the entire game and still be fine, as long as you always have people below you on the list of people to have removed from the game.
- Generally, as long as you're able to avoid the town preventing each other from eliminating their incorrect scumreads as well as the game solving itself the moment one of you is removed from the game, you should reach the endgame with good odds of winning the game.

GENERAL THEORY AND HOW IT RELATES TO MY APPROACH TO MAFIA

- Most of the town games I consider my strongest ones are those games where I'm able to create enough of a swing in the game to where the rest of the town is able to solve the game on their own rather than just me having strong reads.
- A lot of the town stomps I see are simply through either town identifying the scumteam as their targets initially, not giving the scumteam enough resources to be able to work through the game (and therefore having no way to prevent themselves from being inevitably killed), or simply not allowing the scumteam to utilize their resources to get a foothold in the game (which is quite rare).
- The scumteam is often far more in tune with the general direction the game is going than town is, which is a significant reason why I primarily look to figure out what the mafia are likely doing.
- My general approach to most games is to attempt to look at the game and find the most important parts that are likely to cause either a response by mafia or require them to adjust what they're trying to do. Mapping what each shift does and the general approach scum would take that makes the most sense with that particular set of data points allows me to get a rough guess of what mafia is relying on in that particular gamestate. Eliminating the player that most accurately fits that model gives me the ability to test whether I'm on the right track or not, with a town flip often meaning I have incorrect reads on what the gamestate actually is.
- 90% of games, the only reads I'm particularly interested in being correct on are the wagonees. The majority of the rest of my scumreads are players I am least likely to gamestate read into being town later on in the game.
- My working theory on the pinnacle of town play is the ability to remove the mafia's ability to win the game very early on in the game regardless of your own reads or death.
- Read strength is an overrated skill. I have plenty of games where my reads are above average or better, but most of the games I consider my strongest are games where my reads are below average to average.
- Playing as mafia really is not hard, especially if there's ego in the game. Ego from town is the single easiest thing to exploit as mafia in the game.

I'll probably have more thoughts later, but this is a general gist of how I approach the game, what I believe are fundamental truths about mafia, and why I obsess over the gamestate in all my games.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:37 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

In post 0, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:- There is no practical downside to eliminating town early on in the game, especially if you're eliminating players that are more likely to be automatic eliminations later on in the game and/or major distractions. The first mafia death is the highest potential swing in momentum in mafia, but it has exponentially more value the later on in the game it is.
disagree.

morale is a real thing in mafia.

Players play according to their interest level - as scum you can win by utterly annihilating the will of the town to cooperate with each other or solve if you simply give them no mercy.

complete destruction of the town side can lead to game states where scum functionally control the thread despite the obvious solve staring the town in the face.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:20 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

I don't consider that a practical reason because thats almost always caused by assuming that you're losing just because you are eliminating town.

If the meta shifted to this type of mindset being more dominant, towns would very likely be more tolerant of this and it wouldn't be an issue.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:49 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

You play according to the actual mindset of the players though.

also early scum deaths can upgrade tprs such as tracker, rber, etc to be much stronger.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:57 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

I've seen towns fall apart much harder when their momentum fails after killing half the scumteam early on. Even demoralized towns that haven't killed a single mafia yet will more likely than not instantly get a second wind once they do, and then you run into the situation where the first mafia kill blows the game wide open.

That is far less likely to happen when you already have mafia dead and then kill a bunch of town. At that point, in my experience, if town PRs don't save you, you're very unlikely to win the game.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:55 am

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

Compiled the results of the most recent 66 Completed Mini Normals cuz I'm a total nerd.


Number of times Mafia Eliminated D1: 14 - Mafia won 7 times (50% Win Rate)
Number of times Town Eliminated D1: 52 - Mafia won 33 times (63% Win Rate)


Total Statistics: Mafia won 60% of the games (40 out of 66)
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:35 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

What do you believe the difference is and why do you think mafia are winning 60% of mini normals?
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:11 am

Post by Cook »

want me to wiki this?
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:58 pm

Post by skitter30 »

alyssa! great to see you again!

this was really very intersting and a very unique perspective, thanks so much for sharing it
i think some of this aligns with how i approach games, but some of this is very novel and i will have to ~think~ upon it to see if/how i can apply any of it
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:07 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

pretty solid guide imo
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:06 am

Post by T3 »

In post 6, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:What do you believe the difference is and why do you think mafia are winning 60% of mini normals?
on average the mini normal playerbase has better scumplayers than townplayers
i think the mafia being eliminated early thing is more of an issuein large themes
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:25 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 8, skitter30 wrote:alyssa! great to see you again!

this was really very intersting and a very unique perspective, thanks so much for sharing it
i think some of this aligns with how i approach games, but some of this is very novel and i will have to ~think~ upon it to see if/how i can apply any of it
Good to see you again!
In post 10, T3 wrote:
In post 6, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:What do you believe the difference is and why do you think mafia are winning 60% of mini normals?
on average the mini normal playerbase has better scumplayers than townplayers
Why is this the case specifically?
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:28 am

Post by T3 »

not sure tbh
there are also a lot of wifomy setups
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:57 am

Post by Ramcius »

Just to put some things into perspective, you can win most games with 50% scumread accuracy, when it comes to elims, but TRs has to be close to 100%. 3x+1 games require 1 more miselim than there are scum, so you simply need half of elims to be scum

I don't believe in D1 scumflip being bad for town in theory, it's just people being bad at realising what is actual town's wincon and being led astray after they get bad scum player on D1.

Sure, it's possible to win game as a scum by making townies feel miserable and demoralized, but I feel sorry for people who think that's a correct way to play mafia, are you really that desperate to win a game of mafia?
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:10 pm

Post by Cook »

wiki'ing this, one moment
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:25 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 13, Ramcius wrote:I don't believe in D1 scumflip being bad for town in theory, it's just people being bad at realising what is actual town's wincon and being led astray after they get bad scum player on D1.[
I've held that view for quite a few years on this site, primarily because of that reason. There's a ton of results based analysis, at least during the time when I was paying the most attention to it.
In post 13, Ramcius wrote:Just to put some things into perspective, you can win most games with 50% scumread accuracy, when it comes to elims, but TRs has to be close to 100%. 3x+1 games require 1 more miselim than there are scum, so you simply need half of elims to be scum
Are you referring to the individual or the collective?

Because what I am advocating is that the collective reads are what matters, not the individual reads.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:26 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 12, T3 wrote:not sure tbh
there are also a lot of wifomy setups
My interpretation of this is that towns are reliant on role information to get somewhere in games, and there isn't much to gain from how setups are currently.

Does this seem right or wrong?
In post 14, Cook wrote:wiki'ing this, one moment
Sorry, I'm fine with this being wiki'd.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:11 am

Post by Ramcius »

In post 15, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:
In post 13, Ramcius wrote:I don't believe in D1 scumflip being bad for town in theory, it's just people being bad at realising what is actual town's wincon and being led astray after they get bad scum player on D1.[
I've held that view for quite a few years on this site, primarily because of that reason. There's a ton of results based analysis, at least during the time when I was paying the most attention to it.
In post 13, Ramcius wrote:Just to put some things into perspective, you can win most games with 50% scumread accuracy, when it comes to elims, but TRs has to be close to 100%. 3x+1 games require 1 more miselim than there are scum, so you simply need half of elims to be scum
Are you referring to the individual or the collective?

Because what I am advocating is that the collective reads are what matters, not the individual reads.
Collective, it's impossible for individual to get all elims they want, therefore individual reads accuracy isn't that important as collective's

Yes, we had quite a discussion in the past about what is better flip D1 - scum or town. It's quite a conundrum of what should we consider proper mafia theory - optimal play or suboptimal play based on actual games, because making optimal play in actual game is quite hard.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:20 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

Having near perfect town read accuracy isn't incredibly unreasonable if you're resolving the biggest problems that town is having throughout the game. You'll eventually reach a point where it's actually not that hard to identify most of the town in the game.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:42 am

Post by T3 »

In post 16, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:
In post 12, T3 wrote:not sure tbh
there are also a lot of wifomy setups
My interpretation of this is that towns are reliant on role information to get somewhere in games, and there isn't much to gain from how setups are currently.

Does this seem right or wrong?
In post 14, Cook wrote:wiki'ing this, one moment
Sorry, I'm fine with this being wiki'd.
Sort of.
The moderators intentionally try to trick the players, while creating a balanced setup at the same time.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:32 am

Post by Taly »

In post 0, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:- It is far more important to remove obstacles for town from coming to the correct solve later in the game than to eliminate mafia. This gives the mafia fewer opportunities to manipulate the town into eliminating themselves later in the game after all the players that either had correct reads or were holding town together are no longer alive.
How do you determine the difference between maladaptive town behavior and scum play?
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:59 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

It's not that hard to tell if you just don't take it at face value.

I generally approach the game as reasoning that what everybody does makes sense in their own mind. Whichever slot does what makes the most sense to them while simultaneously the most sense to whichever agenda I believe the mafia team is approaching the game with is the slot that I want to see the alignment of.

I often bundle a complete solve with it, but i always reassess it regardless of the result, which i think catches a lot of people off guard.
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