Is it Ethical to Replace into Your Alt?

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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:41 pm

Post by Firebringer »

if you replace into another account in order to take advantage of peoples notion of meta of u. I think its unethical.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:17 am

Post by Cabd »

As a mod, I take the stance that this is moderator influence/out of game influence, and you're forced to stick with the account you signed up to play as. Slips be damned.

Technically speaking an alt could be claiming a different main they actually are, but by allowing the replacement to occur ITT I have now as a moderator confirmed such is true, on a level that is mechanical.

Better to risk no grey areas by banning the practice outright.
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:34 pm

Post by Ythan »

In post 26, Cabd wrote:As a mod, I take the stance that this is moderator influence/out of game influence, and you're forced to stick with the account you signed up to play as. Slips be damned.

Technically speaking an alt could be claiming a different main they actually are, but by allowing the replacement to occur ITT I have now as a moderator confirmed such is true, on a level that is mechanical.

Better to risk no grey areas by banning the practice outright.
Slip posts kinda do the same thing I think without moderator interaction.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:10 am

Post by Taly »

I don't think slips are very avoidable at points.

Is it unethical to play an alt but then not want it outed? Even if you don't use any meta to your advantage?
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:21 am

Post by Ydrasse »

people might find it annoying especially if you do end up using meta but it’s not unethical to not wanted it outed; if anything if you repeatedly play on it an establish it as a thing on its own any small “advantage” you’d get from anonymity wanes. being read in a vacuum for lack of any tells to rely on goes either way wrt being town/scumread.
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:15 am

Post by Sleepless Assassin »

Any strategic replacing is unethical. I know this is up to interpretation, but I've always assumed anyone who replaces out is considered to have lost that game regardless of which fiction wins. So if you're one for statistics, is it really worth taking a loss on one alt to benefit another? Either way, yes, unethical. Play the game as it was started or don't play. Replacements should be for emergencies only.
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:41 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

I don’t believe I have done this because I would be essentially outing my alt by doing that, The only reason I think I’d seriously consider it is if I really didn’t want to play ob that account for whatever reasons. Hectic did this a number of times in me v Titus but everyone knew they were both Hectic. However, I play alts differently than Tally, my playstyle is really only marginally affected by playing on an alt.

Taly have you experienced someone doing to gain a possible advantage in a game that would not have occured otherwise? I have not seen anything like that happen in any game I’ve ever been in.
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:24 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 30, Sleepless Assassin wrote:Any strategic replacing is unethical. I know this is up to interpretation, but I've always assumed anyone who replaces out is considered to have lost that game regardless of which fiction wins. So if you're one for statistics, is it really worth taking a loss on one alt to benefit another? Either way, yes, unethical. Play the game as it was started or don't play. Replacements should be for emergencies only.
Replacements are
objectively
not just for emergencies only.

These are valid reasons to replace out:

Unforeseen scheduling conflicts (something makes you V/LA and you didn't anticipate it before /inning)
You cannot play the game anymore (if a game is actively distressing, or worse, traumatizing, nobody should be forced to play that game. Don't confuse this with "the game is unfun" or "I don't like the game", this is for when a game is actively detrimental to you)
Emergencies (if something needs your immediate attention, paying that attention is more important than Mafia)
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:38 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

In post 30, Sleepless Assassin wrote:Any strategic replacing is unethical. I know this is up to interpretation, but I've always assumed anyone who replaces out is considered to have lost that game regardless of which fiction wins. So if you're one for statistics, is it really worth taking a loss on one alt to benefit another? Either way, yes, unethical. Play the game as it was started or don't play. Replacements should be for emergencies only.
I'm curious what your opinion on this is in the instance I indicated earlier, where a particular playstyle is discovered to not be viable (aka basically not playing). What is the decision that should be made in your eyes for the integrity of the game?

1. Replacing to another account with a more compatible playstyle for that particular game
2. Simply replacing out entirely
3. Flaking out of the game

I remember that being that level of inactive was considered very unethical about a decade ago and distinctly remember seeing and participating in debates about whether it's the moderator's job to replace them with a more active player or the players' jobs to remove that slot entirely.

It's a very multi-faceted problem from this angle because you could realistically argue that slots simply not playing the game at all damages the integrity of the game, but I don't see any solutions for this that doesn't become impacted by this.

As an example for a way this could realistically happen in a game, you join a playerlist with an account that requires the game to progress slowly to function. A player in the game is forced to replace out due to having to go to the hospital and is replaced by a player that makes the game go at a breakneck pace.

This isn't necessarily a callout of your opinion, more a counterpoint that it (as well as most everything) isn't that black and white.
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:45 pm

Post by Sleepless Assassin »

In post 32, TemporalLich wrote:
In post 30, Sleepless Assassin wrote:Any strategic replacing is unethical. I know this is up to interpretation, but I've always assumed anyone who replaces out is considered to have lost that game regardless of which fiction wins. So if you're one for statistics, is it really worth taking a loss on one alt to benefit another? Either way, yes, unethical. Play the game as it was started or don't play. Replacements should be for emergencies only.
Replacements are
objectively
not just for emergencies only.

These are valid reasons to replace out:

Unforeseen scheduling conflicts (something makes you V/LA and you didn't anticipate it before /inning)
You cannot play the game anymore (if a game is actively distressing, or worse, traumatizing, nobody should be forced to play that game. Don't confuse this with "the game is unfun" or "I don't like the game", this is for when a game is actively detrimental to you)
Emergencies (if something needs your immediate attention, paying that attention is more important than Mafia)
Those all sound like emergencies are far as an online game is concerned.

---------

Alyssa if it's a playstyle thing I'd suggest sticking it out but I don't understand why anyone would intentionally want a quiet playstyle. People townread high activity and scumread low activity despite saying otherwise.

I know it's an unpopular opinions but to me in a perfect world you wouldn't see anyone replaced. If a player goes inactive regularly, people just don't play with that person anymore. I do understand a situation where someone is in the hospital or whatever other RL things can happen and by all means they shouldn't be worrying themselves with a silly game. So yes there are situations where it's acceptable. But I've always thought the replacement rate on mafiascum is just plain ridiculous. To know that any given game will have replacements feels wrong. To be able to guess which players will get replaced before a game even starts is even worse. It just changes the game too much. Everyone has their own opinions and playstyles and people are playing based on those people so for others to come in and replace them and be completely different absolutely impacts which faction wins. I don't like it.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:25 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 34, Sleepless Assassin wrote:Those all sound like emergencies are far as an online game is concerned.
yeah that's one way of looking at it actually

though yeah ideally if you're unable to play the game because of logistical reasons you'd replace out.

replacing into an alt definitely doesn't fall into that category.
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:05 pm

Post by northsidegal »

i think i agree with what seems to be something of a consensus that if everything is public then it's not really a big deal, but replacing yourself with a secret alt for some kind of advantage or even just to get the benefit of the doubt that a replacement gets / getting to "start over" seems unethical.

i think another interesting question is, how ethical is it to "drop" a secret alt and reveal yourself for some kind of benefit? i remember one game where i was in basically a 1v1 with scum!RC under a secret alt, and given the rest of the playerlist if i had dropped the secret alt and revealed myself i probably would've been able to elim him, but i didn't and so got elimmed myself. i think that that was probably the right thing to do because doing so would've been a bad feeling / possibly unfair in the same way that any unexpected replacement for scum is already sort of unfair, you play a certain way around a certain player and it feels really bad to just unexpectedly have all of your plans ruined and have things turned around by something out of your control.
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:09 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

That's hard to mediate since accidental altslips happen all the time
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:24 pm

Post by northsidegal »

of course, i suppose the relevant part is just doing it intentionally or not. i wouldn't fault someone if they genuinely slipped and because of that people's opinions about their reads changed. even still, i think that deliberately, like, pulling away your mask and cloak with a dramatic flourish to say "aha! it was actually ME, NSG all along!" to try to get credibility or whatever would probably be wrong. at the very least, it's equally as unfortunate for the scumteam as any random replacement is, but the fact that you would be doing it intentionally makes the difference i think.
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:30 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 36, northsidegal wrote:i think i agree with what seems to be something of a consensus that if everything is public then it's not really a big deal, but replacing yourself with a secret alt for some kind of advantage or even just to get the benefit of the doubt that a replacement gets / getting to "start over" seems unethical.

i think another interesting question is, how ethical is it to "drop" a secret alt and reveal yourself for some kind of benefit? i remember one game where i was in basically a 1v1 with scum!RC under a secret alt, and given the rest of the playerlist if i had dropped the secret alt and revealed myself i probably would've been able to elim him, but i didn't and so got elimmed myself. i think that that was probably the right thing to do because doing so would've been a bad feeling / possibly unfair in the same way that any unexpected replacement for scum is already sort of unfair, you play a certain way around a certain player and it feels really bad to just unexpectedly have all of your plans ruined and have things turned around by something out of your control.
I really don’t see any problem with that? If you play under a secret alt and wish to reveal it any time, it’s your call imo. What I do have a problem with and consider rather gross, is involuntarily outing people’s alts without their permission. That I think depending on the intent behind it, can border on the unethical and seriously needs to stop but some game mods adamantly refuse to redact that involuntary outing even post game, which is not at all cool.
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:31 pm

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

I do think that purposely outing alts for an advantage in game is unethical

I was more saying that if someone wants to be sneaky about it, it's hard to say for sure whether it's intentional or not
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:24 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

I think if you play under a secret alt it's kind of unfair to purposefully reveal your main as it introduces new information and a change to the game state that is not really able to be predicted or planned for by your opposition.
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