The day I make 300+ posts in a 48 hr period or less, is probably the day I will smash my iPad.In post 49, Dwlee99 wrote:The over a longer timescale is the important part there. If I have 10 days to look at 1600 posts, that's about 160 a day. Much more manageable than 800 in a day.
Let's Discuss the Hyperpost Meta
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**********We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)~the worst*******Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl~CheekyTeekyNancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.~Taly- RadiantCowbells
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Speaking as the person who ran the first post restricted game that resulted from the previous discussion on the topic , I think that while unlike in the previous iteration the people complaining about hyperposting are actually people who play mafia rather than people whohypotheticallywould want to play mafia but actually don't, the same problem remains regarding the fact that the hyperposting meta is essentially the normalized meta. Too much of the community is hyperposters or people who are at home in the hyperposter meta at this point. I don't think a post restricted game is likely to fill with the kind of playerlist that entices people to join or stay and the problem has gotten worse in terms of there being significantly less games firing and significantly less people playing in them. The ship has fundamentally sailed I think.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RH9
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I would say that I both hyperpost and finds it hard to keep up when others do. I would say that while Post Caps might be cool in theory, it seems quite strenuous to implement without overt mod influence. In my opinion, the best method to handle hyperposters is a cooldown period rather than a Post Cap.In post 43, Something_Smart wrote:
You may be right; it's possible that the problem lies in part with the people who just assume they won't be able to follow everything and then don't even try. But then again, I'm sure there are people who want to actually be able to read all the posts in the game, and these strategies won't help. I guess that's another group that we'd want to hear input from-- the supposed people who have trouble keeping up. I guess those are less likely to be the kinds of people who frequent MD, so that might be trickier.In post 42, Andante wrote:like, people seem to be skipping over the idea of like that player asking people to calm down or just "hey all yall post too much, I can't keep up" like, I know in games when people are struggling to keep up that's where I'll try and help them like "hey tell me your reads, lets go from there" but like I think I've only been ask once to post less.- T-Bone
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I ran a game where I tried to institute a post cap via math. It did not work out. My theory was that the way to combat hyperposting was to ensure players are posting at more or less the same rate. I used the median absolute deviation and grubb's outlier test on the post counts of the playerlist, in which failing this test meant you'd get a hated modifier the next day (posting too much or too little compared to the rest of the playerlist). This was flawed in some manner, but I never worked out why it was flawed. I think the solution lies somewhere in keeping the playerlist posting at generally the same click, so that players neither get too high or too low of post count.- MathBlade
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The problem is you haven’t defined hyperposter and the subjectivity happens.In post 52, RH9 wrote:
I would say that I both hyperpost and finds it hard to keep up when others do. I would say that while Post Caps might be cool in theory, it seems quite strenuous to implement without overt mod influence. In my opinion, the best method to handle hyperposters is a cooldown period rather than a Post Cap.In post 43, Something_Smart wrote:
You may be right; it's possible that the problem lies in part with the people who just assume they won't be able to follow everything and then don't even try. But then again, I'm sure there are people who want to actually be able to read all the posts in the game, and these strategies won't help. I guess that's another group that we'd want to hear input from-- the supposed people who have trouble keeping up. I guess those are less likely to be the kinds of people who frequent MD, so that might be trickier.In post 42, Andante wrote:like, people seem to be skipping over the idea of like that player asking people to calm down or just "hey all yall post too much, I can't keep up" like, I know in games when people are struggling to keep up that's where I'll try and help them like "hey tell me your reads, lets go from there" but like I think I've only been ask once to post less.ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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While flawed it’s a good start. We can use that as a baseline to sayIn post 53, T-Bone wrote:I ran a game where I tried to institute a post cap via math. It did not work out. My theory was that the way to combat hyperposting was to ensure players are posting at more or less the same rate. I used the median absolute deviation and grubb's outlier test on the post counts of the playerlist, in which failing this test meant you'd get a hated modifier the next day (posting too much or too little compared to the rest of the playerlist). This was flawed in some manner, but I never worked out why it was flawed. I think the solution lies somewhere in keeping the playerlist posting at generally the same click, so that players neither get too high or too low of post count.
“X didn’t work”
Then try an experimental game with hyperposters and those that complain about it.
Sort of like simple games as a series
Then refine it after each game with feedback.
Someone like RC or Koba would be good hyperposters and then maybe someone like a Cephrir or an IV on the low end?
I think that might work then each player gives feedback on what did and didn’t work.ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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It’s definitely going to be an experiment and some trial and error. One of the reasons I don’t mod is I can’t post VCs except before/after work but it is infinitely easier to play from my phone
But if it would help get things going I wouldn’t mind modding something like this with the understanding there’d be twice daily VCs (when I wake up) and after work. If people hyperpost that would be their own issues.ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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That's fair. I define hyperposter as somebody who posts multiple times in a row. Which seems to be not the popular opinion.In post 54, MathBlade wrote:
The problem is you haven’t defined hyperposter and the subjectivity happens.In post 52, RH9 wrote:
I would say that I both hyperpost and finds it hard to keep up when others do. I would say that while Post Caps might be cool in theory, it seems quite strenuous to implement without overt mod influence. In my opinion, the best method to handle hyperposters is a cooldown period rather than a Post Cap.In post 43, Something_Smart wrote:
You may be right; it's possible that the problem lies in part with the people who just assume they won't be able to follow everything and then don't even try. But then again, I'm sure there are people who want to actually be able to read all the posts in the game, and these strategies won't help. I guess that's another group that we'd want to hear input from-- the supposed people who have trouble keeping up. I guess those are less likely to be the kinds of people who frequent MD, so that might be trickier.In post 42, Andante wrote:like, people seem to be skipping over the idea of like that player asking people to calm down or just "hey all yall post too much, I can't keep up" like, I know in games when people are struggling to keep up that's where I'll try and help them like "hey tell me your reads, lets go from there" but like I think I've only been ask once to post less.- Something_Smart
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I appreciate your insistence on objective rather than subjective measure, but I don't think you need to shoot down everyone who proposes a method without giving a strict definition of hyperposting. I doubt that RH9 was planning to just handwave and let game mods make the call; I think most people would agree that's a bad idea. He just hadn't gotten to that part yet because the other part is more important (and more fundamental).In post 54, MathBlade wrote:The problem is you haven’t defined hyperposter and the subjectivity happens.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Nancy Drew 39
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I used to be an extreme hyperposter to such an obnoxious degree that people wouldn’t want to play games with me specifically due to that. I actually couldn’t help it att due to my severe dyslexia but overtime, I learned and discovered ways to overcome it and as a result, I’ve received very few complaints about that in a very long time and I continue to improve on this but it took me an extremely long time to get there.
Now I ask myself before I press “submit”, do I really want to post _____? Is my post actually contributing in a helpful/useful way to the gamestate/to advancing my wincon or providing entertainment/fun or am I just posting irrelevant/redundant content that is only serving to clog up the game? Perhaps if all hyperposters asked themselves that question and they put more thought into it, that would go a very long way to combat the problem?**********We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)~the worst*******Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl~CheekyTeekyNancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.~Taly- RH9
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I think that this is a great idea.In post 59, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I used to be an extreme hyperposter to such an obnoxious degree that people wouldn’t want to play games with me specifically due to that. I actually couldn’t help it att due to my severe dyslexia but overtime, I learned and discovered ways to overcome it and as a result, I’ve received very few complaints about that in a very long time and I continue to improve on this but it took me an extremely long time to get there.
Now I ask myself before I press “submit”, do I really want to post _____? Is my post actually contributing in a helpful/useful way to the gamestate/to advancing my wincon or providing entertainment/fun or am I just posting irrelevant/redundant content that is only serving to clog up the game? Perhaps if all hyperposters asked themselves that question and they put more thought into it, that would go a very long way to combat the problem?- NorwegianboyEE
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As an hyperposter i now feel discriminated against.Norwe is spontaneous, has a stream-of-consciouness posting style, usually posts on catch-ups by commenting on past pages posts, gets rather fired up in certain moments in games, is relatively as playful as me in games and likes casual shitposting
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You know, some players only type big chunk wallposts that reply to every single thing said in 50 posts and listing off 100 quotes.
I have a much harder time catching up to a game where i need to read posts like that than a game with short posts spread out over many pages.Norwe is spontaneous, has a stream-of-consciouness posting style, usually posts on catch-ups by commenting on past pages posts, gets rather fired up in certain moments in games, is relatively as playful as me in games and likes casual shitposting
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Actually why do i lie.
I don’t even read wallposts. I just pretend that i do!Norwe is spontaneous, has a stream-of-consciouness posting style, usually posts on catch-ups by commenting on past pages posts, gets rather fired up in certain moments in games, is relatively as playful as me in games and likes casual shitposting
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We knowIn post 63, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Actually why do i lie.
I don’t even read wallposts. I just pretend that i do!retired
"1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you [have] this way with yourself. You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP
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I agree. Wallposters also make it hard for me to catch up.In post 62, NorwegianboyEE wrote:You know, some players only type big chunk wallposts that reply to every single thing said in 50 posts and listing off 100 quotes.
I have a much harder time catching up to a game where i need to read posts like that than a game with short posts spread out over many pages.- Ythan
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I've written previously in some scattered postgames about hyperposting meta, ways to counter it as scum, and hope for long-term shift in trends to adjust to something more sustainable.
Spoiler: Qualitative meta comments
As an additional note, hyperposting doesn't pose any issues in chat/blitz games, where it's understood that your full attention will be devoted to the game for an hour, but for games over several real-life days balancing becomes very problematic.
While some players will (and already have!) utilize the advantage of slower styles of play, and I don't disagree with qualitative suggestions to both improve individual play and quality of life, I am no longer optimistic that playstyle trends alone will shift the meta to a slower pace.
Increasingly, I think of hyperposting in terms of cooperative games, and more specifically hyperposting as something incentivized for every individual poster but bad for the collective. I've thought about what kind of game lines up best-at times framing it as a unilateralist's curse and at others a stag hunt. I think there are framings for both that makes sense. In the end, though, I think the closest is the good old fashioned prisoner's dilemma. Regardless of what every other player is doing, choosing to hyperpost is rarely, ifever, an option that will leave you worse off, and the only wiggle room is really that the iterations of games played can be considered unknown but capped.
Right now, I think the best answer to this is moderators capping posts.
I suspect both forms-capping the collective and capping the individual-work, but I have a preference. The collective cap, like that used by penguin alien & Cabd in recent games, keeps the tragedy of the commons cooperation problem that capping is intended to mitigate to begin with, but presents it in a more explicit and limited form that gives the game a lot of agency. Attention space, accessibility, and management of them are crucial parts of the game that would suck to lose almost entirely. That said, capping the individual and treating each as an island is my favored approach right now. Leave it up to them to make judicious use of their designated allotment of posts, with a timer resetting either on dayphases or a set number of hours, eg. 24. The voice is intended to be the primary tool, but players will almost always choose to quiet or silence others if given agency to do so (eg. doubling the post count of another player in a collective cap)Last edited by Prism on Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.- Prism
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I do want to make clear I'm not trying to prescribe a one-size fits all solution so people Play Mafia The Way I Want Them To.
Fundamentally I don't think there's anything "wrong" with hyperposting, but it requires asking a lot of very hard questions, like "Who is my game targeted towards, and who is it ill-suited for?" I'm not trying to prescribe a solution to get people to play better mafia, but people on this websitedoseem to value things like longer deadlines and slower play than other websites. We could have one month deadlines if we wanted slower, we could have 24 hour deadlines if we wanted faster.
I think moderators being more proactive in cultivating the sort of pace & accessibility they would like to see goes a long way, with players signing on if that vision interests them. Cabd & PA's collective caps yielded some (I think) good results. For my run of the smaller Guardians of the Fortress, I was very intentional in selecting my prod timer+deadlines to encourage something fast paced, and I again think it turned out well. I am likely to run slower-paced games in the future.Last edited by Prism on Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.- Ythan
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Replying to some of the substantive points. Strongly on board that any caps should be objective and applied without subjective judgment except in initial setup, ie. the actual criterion/limits.
What should be the collective or individual cap?It depends on what the moderator (and players who sign up for the game) want and are interested in. There is no set number and hyperposting is relative to the pace of the other players. For example, I think 25 posts/24 hours is a very realistic goal for most players but will cause moments of discomfort, but you could do 50, or 125 for an entire day if you want a faster pace, or 10 if you would like slower. No-cap games are still perfectly acceptable, too!
But I want to post more because someone else said X!If it's an individual cap, too bad, you should have saved your posts! If it's a collective cap, perhaps it's strategic and unfortunate for you, but it's town's collective failure if something important goes unaddressed that day!
People ignore just a single wallpost. Nobody will listen to me if there's a cap and I can't spam the game.People accommodate to the amount of content in front of them. Nobody listens to your wall because it's buried in 30 pages of one liners. When those one liners suddenly become sparse, peoplewillread the content available. Even if they don't, there is equality: you are free to use the same amount of posts as anyone else to make your point, be it one or five. If theonlyway you feel heard is to spam even when no other player is, congratulations, you are the problem!
Well I don't want to be capped, period.Sign up for games with no cap or very high caps. Run games with no cap or very high caps.Last edited by Prism on Tue Feb 22, 2022 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.- TemporalLich
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Just coming in here to say my thoughts on anti-hyperpost rulesets:
Ideally a toned-town Geriatric Ruleset with a daily limit and a reserve is good, though I think a limit of 10 per 24 hour period is pretty restrictive unless it is known in signups you are signing up for a Geriatric game.
Small anti-hyperpost rules that don't change the meta around posting but discourage spamming the thread are fine. Meta-changing rules impact the game negatively if it's not known in signups.
Absolute limits are also okay, but can be abusable if a player is known to have hit the absolute limit and therefore can't change votes.
Relative limits (such as a hard or soft limit on posting if you are at twice the median number of posts) have a large impact on the meta and enforcing one without a rule is pretty bastard imo.
Collective limits (limits on how many posts per time period can exist at all) are so meta-warping it should be considered bastard if not pre-announced and considered abNormal no matter what.
pedit: Q1: I'd set it high if at all, I don't think warping the meta is worth discouraging hyperposting or spamming
Q2: An individual cap should ideally have "reserve posts" to answer question 2 with a satisfying answer. Collective caps are obviously meta-warping and should only be in Themes where it is known to be part of the setup info in sign ups.
Q3: yeah that makes sense - walls in a hyperpost game will just be skimmed or ignored
Q4: and that is why you make sure your caps are announced in sign-ups, otherwise don't be surprised if people replace out because they can't play by the rulestime will end- Prism
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I like hyperposting as it lets me thoughtstream instead of having a refined wall
but yeah posting caps are very subjective and people have different preferences
The combination of hyperposting and "correspondence" deadlines allow for posting in bursts as you check the game infrequently.time will end- Ythan
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Yeah I enjoy stream of consciousness posting.In post 73, TemporalLich wrote:I like hyperposting as it lets me thoughtstream instead of having a refined wall - Ythan
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