Let's Discuss the Hyperpost Meta

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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:04 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 49, Dwlee99 wrote:The over a longer timescale is the important part there. If I have 10 days to look at 1600 posts, that's about 160 a day. Much more manageable than 800 in a day.
The day I make 300+ posts in a 48 hr period or less, is probably the day I will smash my iPad. :lol:
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:21 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Speaking as the person who ran the first post restricted game that resulted from the previous discussion on the topic , I think that while unlike in the previous iteration the people complaining about hyperposting are actually people who play mafia rather than people who
hypothetically
would want to play mafia but actually don't, the same problem remains regarding the fact that the hyperposting meta is essentially the normalized meta. Too much of the community is hyperposters or people who are at home in the hyperposter meta at this point. I don't think a post restricted game is likely to fill with the kind of playerlist that entices people to join or stay and the problem has gotten worse in terms of there being significantly less games firing and significantly less people playing in them. The ship has fundamentally sailed I think.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:20 am

Post by RH9 »

In post 43, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 42, Andante wrote:like, people seem to be skipping over the idea of like that player asking people to calm down or just "hey all yall post too much, I can't keep up" like, I know in games when people are struggling to keep up that's where I'll try and help them like "hey tell me your reads, lets go from there" but like I think I've only been ask once to post less.
You may be right; it's possible that the problem lies in part with the people who just assume they won't be able to follow everything and then don't even try. But then again, I'm sure there are people who want to actually be able to read all the posts in the game, and these strategies won't help. I guess that's another group that we'd want to hear input from-- the supposed people who have trouble keeping up. I guess those are less likely to be the kinds of people who frequent MD, so that might be trickier.
I would say that I both hyperpost and finds it hard to keep up when others do. I would say that while Post Caps might be cool in theory, it seems quite strenuous to implement without overt mod influence. In my opinion, the best method to handle hyperposters is a cooldown period rather than a Post Cap.
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:25 pm

Post by T-Bone »

I ran a game where I tried to institute a post cap via math. It did not work out. My theory was that the way to combat hyperposting was to ensure players are posting at more or less the same rate. I used the median absolute deviation and grubb's outlier test on the post counts of the playerlist, in which failing this test meant you'd get a hated modifier the next day (posting too much or too little compared to the rest of the playerlist). This was flawed in some manner, but I never worked out why it was flawed. I think the solution lies somewhere in keeping the playerlist posting at generally the same click, so that players neither get too high or too low of post count.
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:30 pm

Post by MathBlade »

In post 52, RH9 wrote:
In post 43, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 42, Andante wrote:like, people seem to be skipping over the idea of like that player asking people to calm down or just "hey all yall post too much, I can't keep up" like, I know in games when people are struggling to keep up that's where I'll try and help them like "hey tell me your reads, lets go from there" but like I think I've only been ask once to post less.
You may be right; it's possible that the problem lies in part with the people who just assume they won't be able to follow everything and then don't even try. But then again, I'm sure there are people who want to actually be able to read all the posts in the game, and these strategies won't help. I guess that's another group that we'd want to hear input from-- the supposed people who have trouble keeping up. I guess those are less likely to be the kinds of people who frequent MD, so that might be trickier.
I would say that I both hyperpost and finds it hard to keep up when others do. I would say that while Post Caps might be cool in theory, it seems quite strenuous to implement without overt mod influence. In my opinion, the best method to handle hyperposters is a cooldown period rather than a Post Cap.
The problem is you haven’t defined hyperposter and the subjectivity happens.
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:32 pm

Post by MathBlade »

In post 53, T-Bone wrote:I ran a game where I tried to institute a post cap via math. It did not work out. My theory was that the way to combat hyperposting was to ensure players are posting at more or less the same rate. I used the median absolute deviation and grubb's outlier test on the post counts of the playerlist, in which failing this test meant you'd get a hated modifier the next day (posting too much or too little compared to the rest of the playerlist). This was flawed in some manner, but I never worked out why it was flawed. I think the solution lies somewhere in keeping the playerlist posting at generally the same click, so that players neither get too high or too low of post count.
While flawed it’s a good start. We can use that as a baseline to say
“X didn’t work”

Then try an experimental game with hyperposters and those that complain about it.
Sort of like simple games as a series

Then refine it after each game with feedback.

Someone like RC or Koba would be good hyperposters and then maybe someone like a Cephrir or an IV on the low end?

I think that might work then each player gives feedback on what did and didn’t work.
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:36 pm

Post by MathBlade »

It’s definitely going to be an experiment and some trial and error. One of the reasons I don’t mod is I can’t post VCs except before/after work but it is infinitely easier to play from my phone

But if it would help get things going I wouldn’t mind modding something like this with the understanding there’d be twice daily VCs (when I wake up) and after work. If people hyperpost that would be their own issues.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:44 pm

Post by RH9 »

In post 54, MathBlade wrote:
In post 52, RH9 wrote:
In post 43, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 42, Andante wrote:like, people seem to be skipping over the idea of like that player asking people to calm down or just "hey all yall post too much, I can't keep up" like, I know in games when people are struggling to keep up that's where I'll try and help them like "hey tell me your reads, lets go from there" but like I think I've only been ask once to post less.
You may be right; it's possible that the problem lies in part with the people who just assume they won't be able to follow everything and then don't even try. But then again, I'm sure there are people who want to actually be able to read all the posts in the game, and these strategies won't help. I guess that's another group that we'd want to hear input from-- the supposed people who have trouble keeping up. I guess those are less likely to be the kinds of people who frequent MD, so that might be trickier.
I would say that I both hyperpost and finds it hard to keep up when others do. I would say that while Post Caps might be cool in theory, it seems quite strenuous to implement without overt mod influence. In my opinion, the best method to handle hyperposters is a cooldown period rather than a Post Cap.
The problem is you haven’t defined hyperposter and the subjectivity happens.
That's fair. I define hyperposter as somebody who posts multiple times in a row. Which seems to be not the popular opinion.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:09 pm

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 54, MathBlade wrote:The problem is you haven’t defined hyperposter and the subjectivity happens.
I appreciate your insistence on objective rather than subjective measure, but I don't think you need to shoot down everyone who proposes a method without giving a strict definition of hyperposting. I doubt that RH9 was planning to just handwave and let game mods make the call; I think most people would agree that's a bad idea. He just hadn't gotten to that part yet because the other part is more important (and more fundamental).
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:27 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

I used to be an extreme hyperposter to such an obnoxious degree that people wouldn’t want to play games with me specifically due to that. I actually couldn’t help it att due to my severe dyslexia but overtime, I learned and discovered ways to overcome it and as a result, I’ve received very few complaints about that in a very long time and I continue to improve on this but it took me an extremely long time to get there.

Now I ask myself before I press “submit”, do I really want to post _____? Is my post actually contributing in a helpful/useful way to the gamestate/to advancing my wincon or providing entertainment/fun or am I just posting irrelevant/redundant content that is only serving to clog up the game? Perhaps if all hyperposters asked themselves that question and they put more thought into it, that would go a very long way to combat the problem?
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:25 pm

Post by RH9 »

In post 59, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I used to be an extreme hyperposter to such an obnoxious degree that people wouldn’t want to play games with me specifically due to that. I actually couldn’t help it att due to my severe dyslexia but overtime, I learned and discovered ways to overcome it and as a result, I’ve received very few complaints about that in a very long time and I continue to improve on this but it took me an extremely long time to get there.

Now I ask myself before I press “submit”, do I really want to post _____? Is my post actually contributing in a helpful/useful way to the gamestate/to advancing my wincon or providing entertainment/fun or am I just posting irrelevant/redundant content that is only serving to clog up the game? Perhaps if all hyperposters asked themselves that question and they put more thought into it, that would go a very long way to combat the problem?
I think that this is a great idea.
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:57 am

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As an hyperposter i now feel discriminated against.
Norwe is spontaneous, has a stream-of-consciouness posting style, usually posts on catch-ups by commenting on past pages posts, gets rather fired up in certain moments in games, is relatively as playful as me in games and likes casual shitposting

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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:00 am

Post by NorwegianboyEE »

You know, some players only type big chunk wallposts that reply to every single thing said in 50 posts and listing off 100 quotes.
I have a much harder time catching up to a game where i need to read posts like that than a game with short posts spread out over many pages.
Norwe is spontaneous, has a stream-of-consciouness posting style, usually posts on catch-ups by commenting on past pages posts, gets rather fired up in certain moments in games, is relatively as playful as me in games and likes casual shitposting

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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:05 am

Post by NorwegianboyEE »

Actually why do i lie.
I don’t even read wallposts. I just pretend that i do!
Norwe is spontaneous, has a stream-of-consciouness posting style, usually posts on catch-ups by commenting on past pages posts, gets rather fired up in certain moments in games, is relatively as playful as me in games and likes casual shitposting

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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:06 am

Post by DkKoba »

In post 63, NorwegianboyEE wrote:Actually why do i lie.
I don’t even read wallposts. I just pretend that i do!
We know
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:54 am

Post by RH9 »

In post 62, NorwegianboyEE wrote:You know, some players only type big chunk wallposts that reply to every single thing said in 50 posts and listing off 100 quotes.
I have a much harder time catching up to a game where i need to read posts like that than a game with short posts spread out over many pages.
I agree. Wallposters also make it hard for me to catch up.
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:22 am

Post by Ythan »

I too don't love walls.
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:53 am

Post by Prism »

I've written previously in some scattered postgames about hyperposting meta, ways to counter it as scum, and hope for long-term shift in trends to adjust to something more sustainable.
Spoiler: Qualitative meta comments
Essentially, I think that the current hyperposting meta, which was considered heavily townsided in 2020, has some fatal flaws that are ripe for exploitation as scum. I've laid down a few blueprint games for how to defeat it proactively, and I know others have, such as the one referenced in the OP where a more passive scumteam simply let town eat itself alive. Several others spring to mind, and these are only games I've been involved in. There are surely many other ideas and implementations.

Longterm, I hoped that town meta would shift back to something more retro. While a dichotomy ignoring a middling approach is not the most accurate picture, it is convenient to think of play as being either "fast" or "slow". The "fast" play favors, as both alignments, players molded in the fires of chat mafia (ie. EM players) and successful adapters. I think the counter is "playing slow"-focused on slow but deep thoughts and collated points, focusing on progressions, and extracting deeper commitments.

As an additional note, hyperposting doesn't pose any issues in chat/blitz games, where it's understood that your full attention will be devoted to the game for an hour, but for games over several real-life days balancing becomes very problematic.

While some players will (and already have!) utilize the advantage of slower styles of play, and I don't disagree with qualitative suggestions to both improve individual play and quality of life, I am no longer optimistic that playstyle trends alone will shift the meta to a slower pace.


Increasingly, I think of hyperposting in terms of cooperative games, and more specifically hyperposting as something incentivized for every individual poster but bad for the collective. I've thought about what kind of game lines up best-at times framing it as a unilateralist's curse and at others a stag hunt. I think there are framings for both that makes sense. In the end, though, I think the closest is the good old fashioned prisoner's dilemma. Regardless of what every other player is doing, choosing to hyperpost is rarely, if
ever
, an option that will leave you worse off, and the only wiggle room is really that the iterations of games played can be considered unknown but capped.

Right now, I think the best answer to this is moderators capping posts.


I suspect both forms-capping the collective and capping the individual-work, but I have a preference. The collective cap, like that used by penguin alien & Cabd in recent games, keeps the tragedy of the commons cooperation problem that capping is intended to mitigate to begin with, but presents it in a more explicit and limited form that gives the game a lot of agency. Attention space, accessibility, and management of them are crucial parts of the game that would suck to lose almost entirely. That said, capping the individual and treating each as an island is my favored approach right now. Leave it up to them to make judicious use of their designated allotment of posts, with a timer resetting either on dayphases or a set number of hours, eg. 24. The voice is intended to be the primary tool, but players will almost always choose to quiet or silence others if given agency to do so (eg. doubling the post count of another player in a collective cap)
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:01 am

Post by Prism »

I do want to make clear I'm not trying to prescribe a one-size fits all solution so people Play Mafia The Way I Want Them To.

Fundamentally I don't think there's anything "wrong" with hyperposting, but it requires asking a lot of very hard questions, like "Who is my game targeted towards, and who is it ill-suited for?" I'm not trying to prescribe a solution to get people to play better mafia, but people on this website
do
seem to value things like longer deadlines and slower play than other websites. We could have one month deadlines if we wanted slower, we could have 24 hour deadlines if we wanted faster.

I think moderators being more proactive in cultivating the sort of pace & accessibility they would like to see goes a long way, with players signing on if that vision interests them. Cabd & PA's collective caps yielded some (I think) good results. For my run of the smaller Guardians of the Fortress, I was very intentional in selecting my prod timer+deadlines to encourage something fast paced, and I again think it turned out well. I am likely to run slower-paced games in the future.
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:03 am

Post by Ythan »

WALLS
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:24 am

Post by Prism »

Replying to some of the substantive points. Strongly on board that any caps should be objective and applied without subjective judgment except in initial setup, ie. the actual criterion/limits.

What should be the collective or individual cap?
It depends on what the moderator (and players who sign up for the game) want and are interested in. There is no set number and hyperposting is relative to the pace of the other players. For example, I think 25 posts/24 hours is a very realistic goal for most players but will cause moments of discomfort, but you could do 50, or 125 for an entire day if you want a faster pace, or 10 if you would like slower. No-cap games are still perfectly acceptable, too!

But I want to post more because someone else said X!
If it's an individual cap, too bad, you should have saved your posts! If it's a collective cap, perhaps it's strategic and unfortunate for you, but it's town's collective failure if something important goes unaddressed that day!

People ignore just a single wallpost. Nobody will listen to me if there's a cap and I can't spam the game.
People accommodate to the amount of content in front of them. Nobody listens to your wall because it's buried in 30 pages of one liners. When those one liners suddenly become sparse, people
will
read the content available. Even if they don't, there is equality: you are free to use the same amount of posts as anyone else to make your point, be it one or five. If the
only
way you feel heard is to spam even when no other player is, congratulations, you are the problem!

Well I don't want to be capped, period.
Sign up for games with no cap or very high caps. Run games with no cap or very high caps.
Last edited by Prism on Tue Feb 22, 2022 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:33 am

Post by TemporalLich »

Just coming in here to say my thoughts on anti-hyperpost rulesets:

Ideally a toned-town Geriatric Ruleset with a daily limit and a reserve is good, though I think a limit of 10 per 24 hour period is pretty restrictive unless it is known in signups you are signing up for a Geriatric game.

Small anti-hyperpost rules that don't change the meta around posting but discourage spamming the thread are fine. Meta-changing rules impact the game negatively if it's not known in signups.

Absolute limits are also okay, but can be abusable if a player is known to have hit the absolute limit and therefore can't change votes.

Relative limits (such as a hard or soft limit on posting if you are at twice the median number of posts) have a large impact on the meta and enforcing one without a rule is pretty bastard imo.

Collective limits (limits on how many posts per time period can exist at all) are so meta-warping it should be considered bastard if not pre-announced and considered abNormal no matter what.

pedit: Q1: I'd set it high if at all, I don't think warping the meta is worth discouraging hyperposting or spamming

Q2: An individual cap should ideally have "reserve posts" to answer question 2 with a satisfying answer. Collective caps are obviously meta-warping and should only be in Themes where it is known to be part of the setup info in sign ups.

Q3: yeah that makes sense - walls in a hyperpost game will just be skimmed or ignored

Q4: and that is why you make sure your caps are announced in sign-ups, otherwise don't be surprised if people replace out because they can't play by the rules
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:48 am

Post by Prism »

Completely agree that any caps should be known in signups. For my part, when I am speaking of "what players want", I am referring to their sign up being a yes/no vote on the restriction.
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:50 am

Post by TemporalLich »

I like hyperposting as it lets me thoughtstream instead of having a refined wall

but yeah posting caps are very subjective and people have different preferences

The combination of hyperposting and "correspondence" deadlines allow for posting in bursts as you check the game infrequently.
time will end
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Ythan
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Ythan
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:59 am

Post by Ythan »

In post 73, TemporalLich wrote:I like hyperposting as it lets me thoughtstream instead of having a refined wall
Yeah I enjoy stream of consciousness posting.
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