Newbie 1883 - Game Over

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: umlaut

OMGUS

[DoubtingThomas]

I'd like to ask about everyone's background and experience. Is this your first Mafia game here? Is it your first Mafia game ever? Where else have you played Mafia/Werewolf or other social deduction games?

So, when I was in a game with Light Ethos, nonny, and TWAIN, that was a second game that I started, but it became the first game I finished (very basic set-up, a lot less people than the other mafia game I was in).

After that, I've gained more experience by almost finishing up that one, and just finishing another one.

So tldr; not so experienced, but definitely learned a lot more than my previous game with Light Ethos and the others. Hopefully this potential change of play/more active take on the game doesn't make me look suspicious or different.

It might be that I will end up not changing up my play style as much, as the other games were faster, hard-end 12hr/12hr or 48hr/24hr game, and the main reason why I didn't check up on the previous game with them was because these newbie games are soft-end 1 week games.

Let's see how I do this game

[DoubtingThomas]

I'd like to ask about everyone's background and experience. Is this your first Mafia game here? Is it your first Mafia game ever? Where else have you played Mafia/Werewolf or other social deduction games?

So, when I was in a game with Light Ethos, nonny, and TWAIN, that was a second game that I started

(first and only game on this website, btw )

, but it became the first game I finished (very basic set-up, a lot less people than the other mafia game I was in).

After that, I've gained more experience by almost finishing up that one, and just finishing another one.

So tldr; not so experienced, but definitely learned a lot more than my previous game with Light Ethos and the others. Hopefully this potential change of play/more active take on the game doesn't make me look suspicious or different.

It might be that I will end up not changing up my play style as much, as the other games were faster, hard-end 12hr/12hr or 48hr/24hr game, and the main reason why I didn't check up on the previous game with them was because these newbie games are soft-end 1 week games.

Let's see how I do this game

edit

[DoubtingThomas]

@DT: Please make sure not to quickhammer this time around. Endgaming day 2 doesn't change the fact your votes were recklessly cast back then. Please hold off your vote this time around and announce intent while leaving a grace period before actually hammering.

VOTE: TWAIN

for being a smartass

[DoubtingThomas]

Here it is: Newbie 1880

I'm reading this over now since fully four of the players in this game played together in that one (TWAIN, Light Ethos, nonny, DoubtingThomas). I'm not super reliant on meta but I do try to get a sense of people's typical town play that I can diff from.

I'm going to go against the grain and say that with six hours on the clock DoubtingThomas' d1 hammer on Performer in that game was not so bad. Any lynch is better than no lynch on day 1, and people were talking about no lynch being an actual possibility at that point, so in that game I'd have been inclined to excuse the lack of hammer etiquette even if it had hit town. (It's not what I would have done in his shoes, but that's because I'm the kind of crazy person who will set alarms reminding me to come in here and hammer at deadline minus five minutes.)

The early day 2 hammer genuinely was bad (even though it worked out) and I hope DT hasn't taken some unfortunate lesson like "quickhammering is awesome and always works" from that game.

VOTE: LaserGuy

The rope is the only killing tool allowed on these premises. Lasers are forbidden.

This is probably Town.

While you're right that I'm town, try not to reach hasty conclusions from single posts.

Why'd you say this? If you're town, and LaserGuy is calling your post towny, why not suppose there really is something towny in your post even if you don't know what it is?

I will generally agree,

and on top of this the second day hammer comes with the fact that I didn't KNOW/understand that that vote will insta kill.

In the other two games I've finished, the end of day didn't end (even if majority is reached and everyone has voted) until the vote clock runs out or everyone casted a ##end vote.

so everyone, let's stop talking about the past

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't really like how Umlaut came off with his statement asking you if you were serious, it seemed accusatory. I think Umlaut might be trying to do reads but something feels off about the way he's going about it.

I have to agree with mallow here.

Something about that seems highly artificial.

Starting off with kind of defending my two hammer votes, then quickly positioning into pointing out TWAIN.

Then saying, it's not a random pick without further explanation.

I will actually stay on my vote for umlaut

[DoubtingThomas]

When I read this I assumed you weren't serious, but your follow-up in 16 implies you were to some degree. Are you actually townreading this post?

Yes, it's a real read. I'm not going to claim it's super solid, but in early D1, I usually can get a few decent reads based on feel. I got a good vibe from that post, so I said as much. As an added bonus, putting my thoughts out there early gives people something to talk about that isn't just meme-posting. FWIW, I think nonny is also Town.

As for the why of it, my feeling is that his joke comes from a townie mindset. Mafia tend to be more... mmm... self-conscious in talking about killing, and I think it's somewhat unlikely that TWAIN would have chosen to write that post if he were mafia.

can you be a little more descriptive than 'got a good vibe' and 'mmm... self-conscious' in your two town reads for them?

[DoubtingThomas]

That's fair. If you were scum I'd have expected you to respond to me by saying you actually were scumreading LaserGuy before.

UNVOTE: TWAIN

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

Don't like either of his last two posts, the sort of wordy me-tooing Mallow's suspicions without actually saying anything in 36 or asking LaserGuy for more detail on what he's already said is a weak preliminary townread in 37.

Mallow hopping off the TWAIN wagon in response to the VC just now looks town.

What do you even mean without actually saying anything? I am summarizing your actions, and adding on to what mallow was saying about how your reads are little bit off while being accusatory.

If you want to know what's suspicious about your activity, let me explain it more thoroughly.

Your post 30 just adds on to what TWAIN and nonny have already talked about. You add a little bit more of a description of what could be or what could not be, which adds little value to the current game. Then you go on to pick out TWAIN's post again, asking him about why TWAIN said it was hasty at 07/24/2018 11:05 am.

This is funny because you've already mentioned this on your previous post (the first post with real content besides your random vote on me and asking everyone about their experience, btw) 07/24/2018 7:43 am:

VOTE: LaserGuy

The rope is the only killing tool allowed on these premises. Lasers are forbidden.

This is probably Town.

When I read this I assumed you weren't serious, but your follow-up in 16 implies you were to some degree. Are you actually townreading this post?

Contrary to TWAIN I don't see anything wrong with a "hasty" read like this as long as it's understood that it's preliminary and subject to change, but I don't really see where it's coming from in the first place.

Why declare that you don't see anything "hasty" with the comment, only to ask TWAIN directly 3 hours later? Why didn't you just ask TWAIN when you first stumbled upon it?

Your post 31, therefore, sounds artificial in the sense that you just hop onto what TWAIN and nonny has talked about (game 1880), and then you added an irrelevant question for TWAIN at the end, even though you could and should have asked that question 3 hours ago if you were genuinely curious about it.

Furthermore, once TWAIN answers your question, you say:

I have some things to say about that but I'd rather see how LaserGuy responds to it first.

VOTE: TWAIN

This isn't based on anything solid but it's not random either.

This is literally the epitome of "wordy" and "without actually saying anything" that you accused my post was doing in post 44. You add absolutely no value for town, while even refusing to express your reaction towards TWAIN's answer (which is of good information for town side), even though there is no real reason not to. Why say your vote is not random if you are not going to even explain what it is?

Talk about saying nothing.

VOTE: umlaut

[DoubtingThomas]

can you be a little more descriptive than 'got a good vibe' and 'mmm... self-conscious' in your two town reads for them?

What part of my description of my reasons for my townread on TWAIN was unclear?

I haven't yet given my reasons for my read on nonny. What do you think of her?

I personally think saying some weak stuff like "vibe" and "he looks self-conscious" doesn't really mean anything.

For example, am I really saying much if I say I think nonny is a town because I get "good vibe" from his posts or nonny is a scum because I get "bad vibe" from his posts?

I think it's perfectly logical and should be recommended to ask people who comment on stuff (whether or not it's a weak read or not) what part of their post made you feel/conclude that.

Let me go on with an example of nonny.

Nonny's first post:

VOTE: umlaut for being too helpful

Like Twain’s repsonse to the town read.

I used to play forever ago then took a 10 year hiatus this is my 3rd newbie game since being back. Did a few marathons. Have played IRL mafia/werewolf over the years.

1) Random/joke vote
2) befriends TWAIN
3) answers umlaut's question


second post:

So tldr; not so experienced, but definitely learned a lot more than my previous game with Light Ethos and the others. Hopefully this potential change of play/more active take on the game doesn't make me look suspicious or different.

Little weird to explain away suspicious behavior before the game has even really started....just saying.

Voting a greek god, what could possibly go wrong

atleast it isn't Zeus or Hades...

1) comments on a weird part of my post
2) joke

post 3:

No....she’s right. It’s good advice. And I actually had the same concern when I saw the player list. Very cautious to let anyone get to L-1 given track record :/

L-1 can be used to gather more information with pressure, can’t gather that info with quick hammers. For those that weren’t in the game we are referring to Newbie 1880 that just finished. (Sorry can’t link cause mobile)

1) again, befriends TWAIN by agreeing with her
2) continues to explain a previous game


Adds little real value for the current game, while suggesting almost 0 new points for this game.

Considering he was much more active on scum hunting since beginning of the game, he seems way too relaxed in this game.

I got a "bad vibe" about his three posts, and will put him at scum read because when he was a townie in the previous game, he was much more active and constantly came up with good points for town

[DoubtingThomas]

As for the why of it, my feeling is that his joke comes from a townie mindset. Mafia tend to be more... mmm... self-conscious in talking about killing, and I think it's somewhat unlikely that TWAIN would have chosen to write that post if he were mafia.

I buy this read, it is obviously early days. But was thinking about this when driving to work this morning, don't think a scum would joke about killing period. Because it could be easily picked apart and used as weak evidence that they are scum.

I will generally agree,

and on top of this the second day hammer comes with the fact that I didn't KNOW/understand that that vote will insta kill.

In the other two games I've finished, the end of day didn't end (even if majority is reached and everyone has voted) until the vote clock runs out or everyone casted a ##end vote.

so everyone, let's stop talking about the past

This is good to know about the posting/voting difference. Can maybe see it not being obvious with how close we were to deadline d1 in 1880. Still is not a good habit and hope it's now clear. Yes, it's a different game and not this game. But either meta is helpful or it isn't, you can't say we need to stop talking about the past while trying to compare my posts this game with that previous game. Can't really have it both ways dude, either you think meta is helpful or you don't. Can't pick and choose just because it's being said about you too. Does that make sense?

Personally I don't like meta and wasn't planning on playing with that meta, just wanted to make sure the mechanic was clear while we are still early in day 1.


Not sure agreeing that someone is giving good advice or commenting on game mechanics is befriending. I am a "she" btw.

Look, this is literally like the 7th post from 3 people still talking about the same exact topic. I am not even playing 'meta' at this point. stop mentioning the same thing over and over again from last game. period.

There is absolutely no need for it, especially after I made it clear that the "mechanic" that you are worrying about is clear. Why are you AGAIN mentioning it? When there is no need to do it AT ALL? It just makes you look like you are trying to sound like a superior person. I understand where I was coming from. You understand where I was coming from. Why can't you drop the matter? You refusing to drop this useless talk about that plot of action makes you look too defensive, something a scum would be doing.

there is a difference between me talking about your previous game and you talking about my previous game.

You are strictly talking about the 'mechanic' part of the game I didn't understand. which is clear for everyone and three different people have mentioned it.

I am talking about your behavior and approach to the game that is noticeably different, which is worth to mention and discuss, because it doesn't come from a lack of understanding of the game.

I don't really like how Umlaut came off with his statement asking you if you were serious, it seemed accusatory. I think Umlaut might be trying to do reads but something feels off about the way he's going about it.

I have to agree with mallow here.

Something about that seems highly artificial.

Starting off with kind of defending my two hammer votes, then quickly positioning into pointing out TWAIN.

Then saying, it's not a random pick without further explanation.

I will actually stay on my vote for umlaut

Is this you befriending mallow?

It looks like umlaut was testing relationships with his vote. Atleast him prefacing it with wanting to hear more from LaserGuy seemed to suggest that. Now that he's moved his vote how do you feel about his voting overall?

Also, your vote on umlaut appears OMGUS to me.

Lmfao. After I point out that you've done absolutely nothing but sweet talk TWAIN, you still refuse to provide much reads except for OMGUS pointing out me, who is the only one that really mentioned you thus far in the thread, that I am OMGUS voting umlaut. Even though I already had my vote on umlaut before he legitimately placed his voted on me.

Instead of pointing out that it seems like I am OMGUS'ing umlaut by OMGUS'ing me. Can you come up with your own points and reads on others and actually start scum hunting?

Sure, I can agree that I am "befriending" mallows like you have "befriended" TWAIN, but unlike you, I am actually contributing and trying to create reads and/or at least communicating with others to get more information out of them from their reactions, on top of the befriending activities.

You, on the other hand, is only talking to me, and does not seem that curious about others, as if you already know who is town and who is scum.

[DoubtingThomas]

I personally think saying some weak stuff like "vibe" and "he looks self-conscious" doesn't really mean anything.

I think it's perfectly logical and should be recommended to ask people who comment on stuff (whether or not it's a weak read or not) what part of their post made you feel/conclude that.

You're misunderstanding what I am trying to do when I am providing reads at this point in the game. I'm not trying to convince you that TWAIN is Town, per se. I believe he is, and am using my read as a springboard to start a conversation. I gave people time to think about it and come up with their own interpretations without my explanation prejudicing them. This creates significant value-added above and beyond the original read. From a four word post I generated ten or so replies and comments so far, and many of these are also alignment indicative, which I can use to make further reads. It's possible that I could have got the same outcome had I provided my reasoning up front, but my experience is probably not.

I don't think there is really difference in whether or not you are trying to convince that someone is a TOWN or not. I think it's logical enough for me to ask WHY you even got WHATEVER feeling you had towards a person, because (and especially true if) I didn't get the same vibe. Maybe I am missing something, or maybe I can share you my opinion of that person that can give you a different mindset/view on it.

No need to really fight over this, as it's just a difference in the approach of the first few posts, where no one really should know what's going on between people except the scum.

I am not accusing you of anything, I am just curious, and I still hold my stance that you should explain/point out to me why you/how you came up with your town read.

For example, am I really saying much if I say I think nonny is a town because I get "good vibe" from his posts or nonny is a scum because I get "bad vibe" from his posts?

I don't think there is really difference in whether or not you are trying to convince that someone is a TOWN or not.

You're providing a concrete opinion on a player's alignment. That is arguably the most useful information that you can provide.

I am providing an 'opinion' of someone that I've read one or two posts from. While this is a legitimate information, it doesn't really advance the game if we don't do something with said opinion.

I am not arguing over difference in the approach to the game any longer, and I'd like to take this game to the next step so we can start getting information that's more than someone's opinion of someone else from like two things they said.

[DoubtingThomas]

It looks like umlaut was testing relationships with his vote. Atleast him prefacing it with wanting to hear more from LaserGuy seemed to suggest that. Now that he's moved his vote how do you feel about his voting overall?

He's changing votes frequently, which is probably null-scummy in general, but at this point of the game, just null, because towns can be doing that.

I'd like to see his reply to my point, but he's contributing and I will put him at null. If I have to choose between town/scum. Probably town, but most definite subject to change, especially when couple others haven't even been posting at all.

[DoubtingThomas]

DT: aside from RVS (which does not count) you weren’t voting umlaut until post 45 after he voted you. How is my talking to you not scumhunting? All your points are hypocritical at best. You yourself are nitpicking approach to the game while saying a few paragraphs later you don’t want to nitpick approach.

What else do you think there is other then discussing opinions? As you said no one knows anything aside from scum. What is the “next step” to you?

you still fail to read anyone else except to continuing to tunnel me.

put some more effort into the game, until then I am voting you VOTE: nonny

[DoubtingThomas]

I made literally zero posts between these two by DoubtingThomas. The only thing that has changed in the interim is that he started getting heat from nonny (his other scumread!) based on his posts about me. I find it difficult to credit that this would soften his read on me. Right now I would expect town!DoubtingThomas to be accusing nonny of chainsawing or something. But it makes perfect sense for scum!DoubtingThomas to try and back out of a push that has drawn unwanted attention.

I am very happy with my vote here.

I am referring to your vote activity before my post.

You initially random voted me, then switched to TWAIN, then switched back to me. This is what I meant by "switching votes" frequently.

and lol. I didn't even read your post yet, but voted in the way you expected town!DoubtingThomas to vote. nice guess tho.

[DoubtingThomas]

@LaserGuy

Thanks for the link. I'm going to take some time to compare your play in that game with your play in Newbie 1833, since they're both showing you in a similar environment at close to the same time. Right now I'm seeing some aspects of your behavior in this game that I want to call towny, so having a scum game as a point of comparison can make me less (or more) paranoid that those aspects are something you'd be likely to fake as scum.

I am referring to your vote activity before my post.

You initially random voted me, then switched to TWAIN, then switched back to me. This is what I meant by "switching votes" frequently.

and lol. I didn't even read your post yet, but voted in the way you expected town!DoubtingThomas to vote. nice guess tho.

I think you're missing my point.

• 45 is a long, detailed discredit and attack on everything I've done in this game that concludes with a vote on me. I think anyone would take from that post that you think I'm scum, and moreover that you are writing it to persuade others that I'm scum.
  
• 56 says that I'm null at worst and if you had to guess you'd say town.
  
• I didn't say anything between those two posts that could change your read on me.
  
• No one else said anything between those two posts that could change your read on me.

I infer from this that you're backing down from scumreading me only because you're uncomfortable with the scrutiny it's gotten you. If my inference is wrong, you'd better convince me that there's a legitimate path from "You add absolutely no value for town... Talk about saying nothing" to "...he's contributing and I will put him at null" without my actually contributing anything in the interim.

You're also misinterpreting (or misrepresenting?) my comment on what town!DoubtingThomas would do. I didn't say you would or wouldn't vote nonny, I said you'd accuse her of

chainsawing

-- indirectly defending her scumbuddy (me) by attacking his attacker (you). Since you're backing down on your scumread of me and voting her instead, that's not exactly what happened.

Post 45 is attack on your irregular voting activity. It's partially a response to YOUR initial post:

That's fair. If you were scum I'd have expected you to respond to me by saying you actually were scumreading LaserGuy before.

UNVOTE: TWAIN

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

Don't like either of his last two posts, the sort of wordy me-tooing Mallow's suspicions without actually saying anything in 36 or asking LaserGuy for more detail on what he's already said is a weak preliminary townread in 37.

Mallow hopping off the TWAIN wagon in response to the VC just now looks town.

about what I said in my first post. About why I think your post was artificial/not genuine. NOT necessarily a full blown attack on WHY you are scum, but rather a defense towards my post that you ATTACKED.

Then I asked a legitimate question -- with a little bit of aggression, but no where really indicating that I have you as a scum read -- why you didn't ask a question that you could have asked with your first post with actual content.

This is literally the epitome of "wordy" and "without actually saying anything" that you accused my post was doing in post 44. You add absolutely no value for town, while even refusing to express your reaction towards TWAIN's answer (which is of good information for town side), even though there is no real reason not to. Why say your vote is not random if you are not going to even explain what it is?

Talk about saying nothing.

VOTE: umlaut

Yes, this is pretty aggressive, but nowhere there can you really draw the conclusion that I am putting you at scum read. I try not to put someone at scum read for one out of 1 or 2 posts that they have really contributed, because towns are

more than capable of saying scummy things, and vice-versa

.

It's a good starting point, but I'd like to take more time and see what's going on. Of course, I will initially declare weak scum/town reads early on, but I had more things to read nonny as scum, than you.

It's partly because you have posted in little quantity up until that point. Which is also part of the reason why, as you claim,

detailed discredit and attack on everything I've done in this game that concludes with a vote on me.

because everything I've mentioned (which is what, like 3-4things? vote changes, commenting on TWAIN, pointing my behavior) is literally all you've done.

You say, 'attack on everything I've done' in a negative connotation, but... really it's not because I am all out to get you. You weren't that involved in the entire thread to begin with.

And before you say 'how can you say I've done few things but say I am contributing to get a null read from you', I'd like to apologize for not being real clear. I tend to have this problem, especially when I am playing mafia. What I should have said is, "he is contributing RELATIVELY to others (light ethos, and few others who I don't even remember the name of)"

Which is why, I said

It looks like umlaut was testing relationships with his vote. Atleast him prefacing it with wanting to hear more from LaserGuy seemed to suggest that. Now that he's moved his vote how do you feel about his voting overall?

He's changing votes frequently, which is probably null-scummy in general, but at this point of the game, just null, because towns can be doing that.

I'd like to see his reply to my point, but he's contributing and I will put him at null. If I have to choose between town/scum. Probably town, but most definite subject to change, especially when couple others haven't even been posting at all.

I said null-scummy, because your participation isn't great in absolute amount, but is good in relative amount. If you participated more, I'd put you towards more townie. By 'If I have to choose between town/scum. Probably town', I didn't mean that I read you as town, but rather, I'd choose not to lynch you, or would put you at relative town, compared to others who aren't even participating. I know I misrepresented myself here, again with the failure to be clear, but please excuse me.

I'd like to take note of the fact that you are using this 'already weak claim' of read for me against me, but also like to point out:

When I read this I assumed you weren't serious, but your follow-up in 16 implies you were to some degree. Are you actually townreading this post?

Yes, it's a real read. I'm not going to claim it's super solid, but in early D1, I usually can get a few decent reads based on feel. I got a good vibe from that post, so I said as much. As an added bonus, putting my thoughts out there early gives people something to talk about that isn't just meme-posting. FWIW, I think nonny is also Town.

As for the why of it, my feeling is that his joke comes from a townie mindset. Mafia tend to be more... mmm... self-conscious in talking about killing, and I think it's somewhat unlikely that TWAIN would have chosen to write that post if he were mafia.

How you put this as:

or asking LaserGuy for more detail on what he's already said is a weak preliminary townread in 37.

a weak preliminary read, but do not give the same benefit of doubt for my clearly implied weak read on people? Why do you have a double standard?


As much as I dislike your approach and claims for this game, I think looking at your longer posts and engagement, I can get a better feeling to put you at town.You make really hard attempts to decipher people's read, and not just tunnel only on me, but continue to communicate with others and try to find out who really the mafia is.

This has to be the clearest townie for me right now at the moment.

As for nonny, he still hasn't done anything like that, and only is pointing fingers at me, which is fine, but has shown little to no attempt at trying to read OTHERS at all, as if he forgets that there is more than one mafia in the game to begin with.

I will stay on my vote of nonny.

[DoubtingThomas]

@Mallow

: Who do you think is Town at this point?

I'm gonna say probably TWAIN and Nonny at the current moment. I don't have enough info on the lurkers to determine a read yet.

Why do you think nonny is a town?

[DoubtingThomas]

I'm going to decline to continue this back-and-forth with DoubtingThomas right now. He's still my top scumread, but I feel like I'm on the path toward tunnel vision and I also don't want our wall wars to overshadow the rest of the game. If there's anything he said that anyone

really

wants my response to then I'll give it.

[*]

DoubtingThomas

I have already talked about at length, and 71 does nothing to dissuade my impression that he's trying to retcon his earlier posts now that they didn't work in his favor.[/list]

The only associative read I have high confidence in is that DT-nonny is not a scumteam. Given that DT is scum Mallow could

possibly

be his buddy (in the sense that there are no associative tells to suggest otherwise) but I think it's much more likely there's scum in the inactives. Honestly I'm pretty sure that's the case even if DT is town.

I think this is possibly the dumbest approach that a town can have for this game.

Start a conversation with one of the people, but once you reply like once or twice and they reply back, pretend to want to "not tunnel" on that person by refusing to respond to their post, but still keep them as top scum read and keep the vote on them.

You are essentially saying you don't want to tunnel, but still tunneling on me while refusing to give out more information/discuss matters.

Choose one. If you don't want to tunnel, then go look for another scum read. If you want to tunnel, go ahead and keep your votes and top scum-read on me.

This almost sounds too blatantly scummy and illogical that maybe this is the most obvious proof of being a town in this game.

[DoubtingThomas]

if I was able to read long paragraphs of text my choice of career would've been very different in life

You know this is the kind of game that's focused on reading and analysing said long paragraphs, right?

Not exactly.

Mafia is game of lying and finding mafia. Focused reading and analyzing long paragraphs are ideal and most used methods in coming up with hypotheses, not a necessity, neither is it the name of the game.

If he doesn't want to do it, he has the right not to. Whether or not he gets scum read for it is a different issue.


I think that a scum wouldn't act in such a way. Scum wants to please other people and look good. Scum doesn't go out of his way, saying, "dude I don't want to read essays" and draw attention.

I am gonna put him as town lean.

[DoubtingThomas]

I'm not tunneling you (p-edit: ehh maybe I am). You are actively posting and actively posting things that don't jive. So I respond to those. Anything else that warranted comment I have commented on. If its already been addressed then I don't see reason to duplicate it. Posting multiple wall posts full of summaries (poor/misinterpreted summaries) is not the only way to put effort into the game. Why are you focused on what you think is my lack of activity versus those that are actively lurking?

I am saying your lack of activity, but still only tunneling me and ever mentioning me is what a scum would do.

Scum wants to pick one man and draw attention to whatever they can that might make them scummy. That's what you did, and that's the only thing you did.

Post 71 is problematic, but starting to feel it's a waste of time to point out all the inaccuracies in DT's posts. For example though, DT states Umlaut is suspicious for his "vote changes" when at this point he's voted 3 times, which is one less the number DT has voted. First, it's a silly thing to draw attention to as "not doing anything" when he is doing something by voting which moves the game forward. Secondly, why draw attention to that specifically when you are as well changing votes just as frequently? Its just odd at minimum. It's also grasping at flimsy straws.

"not doing anything" in the first three posts with two of them being a joke vote or with weak claim like "it's not a random vote, btw" is not false. I firmly announce that, to me, that's nothing, and to you, that may be something. Let's not fight over whose opinion is more correct in a forum mafia game.

First look it at the town's point of view.

GIVEN THAT I AM TOWN, I am trying to look for clues from other's action. I DID NOT put changing votes as the only reason I am scum reading umlaut, but a partial reason. WHICH is often times what scums do. They change votes around to see people's reaction and try to settle on one town that's being wildly scum read.

As a town, given this information, it is more than likely for me to think of this as a reason to put umlaut suspicious. As a town, I am unaware of the fact that well, I am also changing votes around, because I am a town and the joke votes I made in the beginning meant nothing to me and I quickly forgot.

Let's look at the voting activities more closely, rather than just from the surface.

Umlaut: post7 - joke vote; post32 - votes TWAIN, saying "This isn't based on anything solid but it's not random either."; post44 - votes DT

DoubtingThomas: post15 - joke vote; post28 - joke vote; post45 - votes umlaut while asking umlaut his intentions ; post65 - votes nonny after writing like three essays on how suspicious I am of him.

I mean, if you are going to count CLEARLY implied joke votes as a legit vote, I won't stop you. But he's voted 2 times legitimately, and I've voted 2 times legitimately. So let's stop ourselves from exaggerating matters.

Please refrain from saying ignorant things like, "it's a waste of time to point out all the inaccuracies in DT's posts.", as I can assure you that I can probably explain/counter whatever bs you are accusing me of. So go give it another try to discredit me.

I'm starting to think "read" is another word that you are defining differently than everyone else. A "read" is typically something semi-solid that you post, see Umlaut's post 75. I think you may be using "read" as investigate or question. This may seem like semanitcs to point out but I feel its worth clearing up. If you are going with the first definition, you'll see I don't like to post full read lists, makes it easier for scum to push their mislynch if they know where everyone is at, I know there are pros to it but it's just not my preference. IF I have a strong read then I will say as much. If you mean the latter, I still disagree but can see it appearing that way.
To the next part of that sentence, this is again playstyle difference. It's easy to sort people based on behavior but I'd rather focus on finding 1 scum, have it confirmed (via lynch obv) and then focus on finding the next. For this set-up I find this most efficient. Hard to find a partner to someone who is a guess. I'm not forgetting their are two scum, we only have to find one today.

No, I am not confusing the meaning at all. I don't really know what you are representing by "semi-solid", but you can definitely have a small read on someone like Poseidon - few posts that doesn't really do XXX but does YYY, slight-ZZZ. Maybe it means something different in mafia scum, as I have seen that same words might mean slightly different things in differing websites, but that's what it meant in two different sites I've been on. I can try really hard to understand why you might not be a big fan of posting reads of people, but being reluctant to commit to what view of people you are starting to develop over the course of game that is 100+ posts in is something what scums typically do.

Scums don't want to commit. Scums don't want to provide read list because they don't want to give any information to towns. scum already knows who is town and who is scum. Providing read lists helps townies, especially once they are lynched.

Your problem is that, on top of not providing a reads list, you are not doing anything but talking to and about me. You didn't do anything except for complimenting TWAIN, until on two or three different occasions I've pointed this fact out.

To the next part of that sentence, this is again playstyle difference. It's easy to sort people based on behavior but I'd rather focus on finding 1 scum, have it confirmed (via lynch obv) and then focus on finding the next. For this set-up I find this most efficient. Hard to find a partner to someone who is a guess. I'm not forgetting their are two scum, we only have to find one today.

to your other posts, I can give you a respect for your opinion and belief. This point is just plain bad. If you open your eyes to try to find two scums at a time, it enables you to see the connection and interaction between the two scums that are out there. How are you going to try to find out one scum when you are isolating the existence of the second scum? Many times townies post things that can be potentially viewed as scummy. If you isolate and tunnel on trying to find only one scum, you are going to tunnel on that person, as you have done with me. So, congrats if you are town.

Addressed this above, but I'm not one to do a full read post. I am leaning town on umlaut and LG. DT is ringing most likely to be scum to me his progression away from umlaut looks like it has more to do with many players posting a town read on umlaut then with anything else, but perhaps I am tunneling after all. Also leaning scum on Poseidon, slight-scum on saudade but that could be from me not liking his posting style as well.

Addressed this above, but this is going to just be seen as scummy as hell by many people in the future. Doing a simple thing like providing your honest opinion on the small activities each people have done so early into the game is not hard.

EVERYONE knows that this is very early in the game, and no one is going to harm you for reading small things wrong. The point is to see more information out of you, and you pointing out things that others might have missed, and seeing other people's reaction to your post. Why are you afraid to provide a simple read list (THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO COMMIT TO if you didn't know already, btw) that helps town so much?

Really, what are you accomplishing by refusing to provide a SIMPLE GOD DAMN reads list that no one is going to condemn you for if you are completely wrong?

Why so stubborn?


I don't know what TWAIN was referring to as meta analyzing, but the fact that the first non-DoubtingThomas interaction you've had is post #94 after I pointed out multiple times you should do more for the game as townie,

is quite concerning, and I don't know why it's not getting picked up by others. This is honestly the biggest concern that you have omitted from your replies. You only mentioned "reads list" and made it sound like an unthinkable thing that people shouldn't be doing because it might hurt someone's feelings or something. But no, you had like 0 (maybe more, but I can't see any, so point out) interaction with anyone related to scum hunting (that means disregarding your complimentary behavior towards TWAIN and stuff), until like post 94.

You didn't care about the scum. You spent many posts to attack me, but now you back out and vote someone else instead. Like what? why are you suddenly voting someone you haven't even mentioned in the past 90 posts?

Perhaps the only real reason is that my tone of voice makes people uncomfortable or something, but that's just "difference in playstyle" as nonny has put, and I encourage everyone to see out of their emotions.

[DoubtingThomas]

>while refusing to give out more information/discuss matters.

>If there's anything he said that anyone really wants my response to then I'll give it.
Doesn't really sound like refusal to me.

This is just complete bs. Lol. The fact that he'd only act in a certain way once he is only inquired for doesn't mean he's not refusing.

He's literally saying, "Hey DT, I don't give a damn about what you are yappering about, but if others ask me for it, I will tell them. Btw, I am still voting you because you didn't convince me that you are NOT scum "

Is this chain of logic good enough for you?

[DoubtingThomas]

[quote="In post 112 He can still find you scummy based on the information already gathered. Him not wanting to tunnel does not make you not a scum read, nor does his post make you look town.

@saudade: so you trust other people’s summaries more than yourself?[/quote]

The fact that he's refusing to communicate why he still finds me scummy after I've responded to his points is tunneling.

[DoubtingThomas]

The only scum read about me that umlaut has explained to me is that

1) I agreed with mallows (which all of you have done by agreeing with others; and by the way, I tried to explain myself unlike many others)

2) Because I asked LaserGuy about why he is weak town reading someone else
>I've explained why I think asking people their reasons for reading someone is important, no matter how weak it is
>Hypocritical because he criticized my post about what I have meant as a 'weak read', BTW

3) I changed my opinion of umlaut between my two posts
>Which is false, and explained in 71, that he did not respond to

[DoubtingThomas]

He's literally saying, "Hey DT, I don't give a damn about what you are yappering about, but if others ask me for it, I will tell them. Btw, I am still voting you because you didn't convince me that you are NOT scum "

You know, I didn't say only "others" there. If there's something in your posts to which

you

are looking for a response from me, you could point it out too.

Simply list what about me that you have me scum read for.

All your points before 71 doesn't only apply to me or is your misunderstanding

[DoubtingThomas]

DT: you, you’re self are tunneling. And again misrepresenting what I’ve said. I have no problem if others want to post a full read, I already stated I feel like it just makes mafia’s job easier for them to find who they can toss under the bus. Both my newbie games since my return to site have needed on Day 2 with a clean sweep of scum, game 1876 I lead the wagon on both the scum, I’ll stick with my play style it works for me. Also, I specifically said this set up, a game with more scum or various scum teams warrants different play. I, also, feel there is no further benefit to replying to your wall posts.

Make no mistake, you are still my #1 scum slot, but I want to see other players participate. If we get to deadline with how things are now then I’m more than ready to vote for you.

I am scum read because I attacked you? or do you have any other reasons?

[DoubtingThomas]

DT: you, you’re self are tunneling. And again misrepresenting what I’ve said. I have no problem if others want to post a full read, I already stated I feel like it just makes mafia’s job easier for them to find who they can toss under the bus. Both my newbie games since my return to site have needed on Day 2 with a clean sweep of scum, game 1876 I lead the wagon on both the scum, I’ll stick with my play style it works for me. Also, I specifically said this set up, a game with more scum or various scum teams warrants different play. I, also, feel there is no further benefit to replying to your wall posts.

Make no mistake, you are still my #1 scum slot, but I want to see other players participate. If we get to deadline with how things are now then I’m more than ready to vote for you.

I am scum read because I attacked you? or do you have any other reasons?

[DoubtingThomas]

He's literally saying, "Hey DT, I don't give a damn about what you are yappering about, but if others ask me for it, I will tell them. Btw, I am still voting you because you didn't convince me that you are NOT scum "

You know, I didn't say only "others" there. If there's something in your posts to which

you

are looking for a response from me, you could point it out too.

Straw hat by the way.

Doesn't change my point whether or not you were referring to "others" or including me too.

the point is that is your logic.

"I don't want to tunnel, but DT, I don't care about what you say. I am still voting you."

This is a tunneling. Admit it.

[DoubtingThomas]

You blanently and repeatedly misrepresenting what other plays say, which has been pointed out direnctly by myself, Umlaut, and Twain. This is the scummiest thing to do, because it creates false information. I’ve already shared other instances that were scummy in my various posts.

When did you flip again? You’re post last page about Umlaut you said he was town read, now he’s scum again to you? Very hot/cold.

How am I misrepresenting others? Let me ask you -- how am I misrepresenting you specifically? I've answered your question, and am clearly saying I am not misrepresenting anyone. Don't hop on that wagon please, make your on independent case.

No, you are not understanding what I am saying correctly, which I have explained more thoroughly later.

Please stop misrepresenting others. lol.

[DoubtingThomas]

I will respond to everyone's point after I work and (probably gym). I don't really want to write long essays at the moment.

That being said, I am fine to move onto the next phase to see a flip and night actions at this point. I think we are all getting repetitive, and as I have mentioned how I preferred quicker deadlines in the other games, I am not big fan of having long days for each phase, especially on the very first day.

I am fine with lynching Poseidon, as I don't want to get flamed for hammering Poseidon, I am going to cast my lynch about 9 pm est if Poseidon doesn't make an effective defense and people stay on their vote with Poseidon.

Carry on.

[DoubtingThomas]

I kind of feel lazy to reply to three different people in three different long essays, and it looks like nonny is going to delay the game from 7/27 to 7/31, so I will take my time into responding to your points.

And please, when I say, "I will reply to your points later when I feel less tired about constantly posting long ass posts", please read that, instead of saying "it looks like DT is ignoring your request for reads, umlaut."

Like at this point, I am so tired of FOUR people (umlaut, TWAIN, nonny, and the guy with yoshi picture) just saying the same thing about scum reading me and thinking every single thing I am doing is suspicious, even though I am the one that doesn't have my vote on Poseidon over a single post.

Obviously, not all 4 of them are scums, so there are towns in that group. But then there are AT LEAST two, three (or maybe all 4 of them are towns, who knows) towns that are just REPEATING what the guy before has said.

Which is fine, but it doesn't contribute at all to scum finding and it makes it easier for scum to blend in. So please, if all you are essentially saying is what the other guy pointed out, stop doing the same thing

PS:
Nonny still refuses to put out any reads, huh. interesting

[DoubtingThomas]

They're still on the page I left them on. Don't think I unvoted you because you alleviated my suspicions of you or something. It's just that Poseidon is the more pressing issue at hand.

It doesn't make sense for you to scum read me and sausade and have given numerous valid reasons, but only to vote Poseidon over ONE "anti-town" post that a town could have said too?

Like you are saying it's not scummy, it's just anti-town, and you are using one post by him to

L-1 VOTE

him, even though you are hard putting me and sausade on scum.

Nice anti-town voting.

[DoubtingThomas]

Read list incoming, in case nonny or umlaut flames me again

[DoubtingThomas]

Please don't use this as a reason to draw conclusion of me, this is a list of what I think of each person RELATIVELY and with the little information we have at D1.

Light Ethos - Low contribution... perhaps motivation shows that he's a town, but just hasn't done anything so can't say

null to slight town

Poseidon and Sausade - Low contribution, and says some dumb things. I'd like to think these kind of plays as town lean because again, scum wants to please people and get not voted as much as they can, especially on D1.

town lean

Umlaut - I've mentioned multiple times that I like his play. seems townie. the only problem I have with him is that he starts a conversation with me, then decides to 'not want to tunnel me' by staying on my vote and ignoring my responses. Really toxic play as town. Again, it's so toxic and scummy that it's probably what a town would do. I don't think he would overplay like this in a townie game. Still his essential tunneling makes him less townie than before. I still like his reaction to the L-1 vote and that he points out what's scummy about me, although not quite convinced. downgrade to

slight town

Mallows - Not too much contribution, but more than Light Ethos. Says interesting points, but hard to find scum/town lean. Voted Umlaut without too much explanation, but I like his question towards me that I will answer after this reads list.

null to slight town

LaserGuy - I honestly see nothing really on him. Others have put him at town, and I put him at some town to some degree early game, but I am definitely always skeptical of putting someone at town or scum over the first few posts. I like his consistent inquisitorial behavior towards me, but it's quite hard to tell, as it will be extremely easy for scums to just follow on the DT bandwagon. nothing scummy, but it's hard to really get a strong town read from his play. I also think his post #146 "Reading it over, my first instinct is this sounds like scum giving up on a buddy." is a little quick to judgement without explanation, but I mean everyone reads me as scum, so I guess it's hard to help it. I do not like, however, that he voted me 3 minutes after he has posted post #146 on post #147. I mean.. why did you take 2~3 minutes to vote me on a separate post? [.v]DoubtingtThomas[/v] doesn't take that long to post? Maybe just real life? but weird indeed. Less townie than before... close to

null

nonny - Although I've been 'tunneling' on her. (yes, I legitimately saw her as scum, but I also exaggerated my interactions and reactions on purpose to see others' reactions as well as hers) I really like that she is consistent with her behavior of not putting a read list. If I advocated that hard for her to push a read list, most scums and even less established townies would have come up with some sort of compromise, she simply ignored me. That's an excellent attitude as a town, and I like to give her more credit. Although, if I were to bet money on whether or not she is a scum or town, I might have to go with scum because of my previous scum reads which I think are legitimate, she is definitely less scummy

still scum lean, however

TWAIN - Got town read by many people by two posts at the beginning, but I am not too convinced, as that kind of posts are easy enough for scums to say to get town read. Hard reads me and sausade as top two scum, but then votes Poseidon over one "anti-town" post, while saying "Terrible answer. Let's make you less indifferent." As if he's pressure voting Poseidon to get a reaction. correct me if I am wrong, but I think earlier in the post TWAIN was the one who pointed out to nonny or someone else that he is not fond of pressure voting? Although a lot of his posts seem towny, he's done many actions that are contradictory and scummy. He is one of the only 'newbs' in this newbie game that doesn't play like a newb, so I feel like he's capable of these plays as scum...
"
Umlaut

>inquires LG about his read on me
>inquires me about my reply to him
>active scumhunting, makes reads of everyone
>in 60 he actually says quite a bit of stuff I wanted to say myself

Easy town.
"
This is his logic of putting umlaut as town, but I more or so inquired a lot, and have been in active scumhunting as well, but he puts me at hard scum..... because I am more aggressive? and have different opinions to him? evolved from townish to

null to scum

[DoubtingThomas]

>even though you are

hard putting

me and sausade on scum
That's where you're wrong.

Well, if you don't want people to misinterpret what you are saying, be a little more specific when you say stuff like:

Anyway, to make the read list:

Town: Umlaut, mallow
Town-leaning: LaserGuy
Null: Poseidon, Light, nonny (the latter two are definitely NOT the scumteam)
Scum-leaning: DT, Saudade

I'm yet to be completely sold on DT being scum (it's more or less up to how my reading of nonny changes), so I'll cast the vote I feel more comfortable with currently.
VOTE: Saudade

It's not a sin to understand this post as you putting DT and Saudade on top two scum read... especially with the additional comment at the end "I'm

yet

to completely sold on DT being scum", I understood it as, (I vote Saudade more as scum, as I am not 100% sure DT is a scum, yet (but he could be)."

Also, what I don't understand is if you are

definitely

sure that Light and nonny are not scumteam, why not just put them in town-leaning? There isn't a 3rd party in this set up?

[DoubtingThomas]

Umlaut - I've mentioned multiple times that I like his play. seems townie. the only problem I have with him is that he starts a conversation with me, then decides to 'not want to tunnel me' by staying on my vote and ignoring my responses. Really toxic play as town. Again, it's so toxic and scummy that it's probably what a town would do.

I don't think he would overplay like this in a townie game

Let me clarify:

By overplay, I meant I don't think he would go through all those trouble to look scummy enough to look town in a townie game (like playing mind games)... if that makes sense

[DoubtingThomas]

Before Poseidon pulled his stunt I was of the opinion that one scum slot was filled by either you (more likely) or nonny (less likely, and has become increasingly less likely since), and the other slot more likely filled by Saudade than anyone else. Then Poseidon threw everything in the air and became a candidate for Saudade's slot, but a more dangerous one because he's straight up stated his lack of willingness to contribute to this day. I don't take lightly to that. There are three outcomes I see to this:
1. He starts actually getting involved in the game. Best outcome and what I want of him.
2. He still continues on his path, but roleclaims upon intent to hammer. Not too great, but definitely some info obtained from him as opposed to nothing.
3. He ignores all calls and becomes a policy lynch.

so, you are town leaning me now, then? Because poseidon 'threw' everything in the air and became suspicious, and you are sure that Saudade is the other scum?

But it doesn't sound like you are town reading me at all, and in your world you have two scums -- Saudade, Poseidon -- and like .75 scum (me).

Although I agree that what Poseidon is doing is toxic to town and I dislike that as well, I believe players like Light Ethos is even worse than him. This man has like what 1 real post and like 2 posts saying, I will come back later.

At least Poseidon is being blunt about the fact that he's not interested in sharing his opinion and will say something in D2. Light Ethos just looks like he's avoiding the tension whenever he's being prodded. At this point, we have to think of him as an active lurker.

I fail to see why you are so insistent on attacking Poseidon, even to the point of voting him over one post, when you are putting Saudade at hard scum and me at scum (which is understandable because 3 others are putting me at hard scum).

You complained about how I hammered in my last game, but you are providing the L-1 lynch over someone you lack evidence of as scum but would like to 'policy lynch' him for being lackluster in activity.

I don't see your current reaction as townie, and believing that you are a cynical and intelligent individual, I don't get how you want to risk Poseidon getting hammered just for one post, when there are technical lurkers out there who's doing even less than him.

why criticize others for pressure voting, when you are doing the same thing here? (please excuse me, if you are not the one who posted that you don't like pressure voting. I might be remembering wrong, and don't have the time to search atm)

[DoubtingThomas]

Please don't use this as a reason to draw conclusion of me, this is a list of what I think of each person RELATIVELY and with the little information we have at D1.

@DoubtingThomas

If some other player made a post leading with "Don't use this post to draw conclusions about me" would you honor that request?

Eh, depends. In this case, I would because Umlaut, nonny, yoshiGuy, and TWAIN just says the same thing about how they think DoubtingThomas is scummy for breathing.

Pointing out the obvious that gets other 3 people instantly agree doesn't really help the case.

what I do welcome is what you think of my reads and what you think of me and others due to it.

[DoubtingThomas]

Wait you didnt imply it you've explicitly said it

Lmfao. My name is Frank McBurgerFlipperino

[DoubtingThomas]

>Also, what I don't understand is if you are definitely sure that Light and nonny are not scumteam, why not just put them in town-leaning?
Not being the scumteam only means they can't both be scum at the same time, so if one flipped scum the other would definitely be town. Of course, they may also be both town, but I don't have the info to draw that conclusion. Definitely no info on Light.

Okay, I understood your post wrong then.

[DoubtingThomas]

@Doubting Thomas

-Why does my bad vibes about Umlaut seem okay to you but when Laserguy does it it isn't an acceptable reason?

I don't really like how Umlaut came off with his statement asking you if you were serious, it seemed accusatory. I think Umlaut might be trying to do reads but something feels off about the way he's going about it.

I have to agree with mallow here.

Something about that seems highly artificial.

Starting off with kind of defending my two hammer votes, then quickly positioning into pointing out TWAIN.

Then saying, it's not a random pick without further explanation.

I will actually stay on my vote for umlaut

When I read this I assumed you weren't serious, but your follow-up in 16 implies you were to some degree. Are you actually townreading this post?

Yes, it's a real read. I'm not going to claim it's super solid, but in early D1, I usually can get a few decent reads based on feel. I got a good vibe from that post, so I said as much. As an added bonus, putting my thoughts out there early gives people something to talk about that isn't just meme-posting. FWIW, I think nonny is also Town.

As for the why of it, my feeling is that his joke comes from a townie mindset. Mafia tend to be more... mmm... self-conscious in talking about killing, and I think it's somewhat unlikely that TWAIN would have chosen to write that post if he were mafia.

can you be a little more descriptive than 'got a good vibe' and 'mmm... self-conscious' in your two town reads for them?

That's not quite what I meant.

I was never in disapproval of Yoshi's bad vibe, nor in approval of your bad vibe.

I agreed with your bad vibe, because I got the same vibe, and tried to explain why I got that vibe. ( which, btw, was criticized by umlaut for looking like "he just agrees with mallows and doesn't add actual content")

I disagreed with Yoshi's bad vibe, and wanted to know what exactly made him get that bad vibe, because I wanted to know what I missed and maybe give him my opinion of him why I didn't think it was bad vibey for me.

[DoubtingThomas]

TWAIN, I feel like DT is presuming you should only have two scumreads, so that if you're leaning scum on both Saudade and Poseidon you can't be leaning scum on him. (DT can correct me if he thinks this is an inaccurate description of his position.)

This isn't true, and I can even formalize it: if you were to assign probabilities that each player is scum, the only formal constraint is that the total must be 200% (100%/scum × 2 scum). So it's totally self-consistent, for example, to say that each of three players is 50% likely to be scum, and each of the other five (aside from you) is 10% likely.

Most people aren't going to assign probabilities explicitly, but a rough heuristic of "it's reasonable to have several relatively weak scumleans, maybe not five but three is okay and four is a stretch but not out of the question" still applies.

um yeah no

if I were to believe that, I would have picked TWAIN and nonny and closed my case.

I am open to all possibilities. even you as scum at this point, because 1 is a lurker, 2 or 3 is low posting, and 4 just have the exact same opinion on everything basically

[DoubtingThomas]

>At least Poseidon is being blunt about the fact that he's not interested in sharing his opinion
That's what makes it worse IMO.


I can see why you could see that, but I think it makes it honestly better, and I challenge you to see that as well

[DoubtingThomas]

>and in your world you have two scums -- Saudade, Poseidon -- and like .75 scum (me).
Reread the post you're replying to. You're the main candidate over one slot, with the other potential candidate

for that slot

being nonny. The other slot was more likely to be Saudade's (and more likely doesn't mean set in stone, but that he got the head start on it), but now Poseidon joined in the mix.

>why criticize others for pressure voting, when you are doing the same thing here?
Refer back to >>173:
>I didn't say I'm not fond of pressure voting, I said one shouldn't do it without firing a warning shot to the player to get involved. Poseidon got its fair share of warning shots from people, and his reply was tantamount to "lolno". That completely warrants a vote.

I don't quite see why you don't think me-saudade scum couple is not possible.


And for the pressure voting bit, when you are pressuring someone to act by voting on them, that's essentially giving them a 'warning shot' to act.

why would you give a 'warning shot' for a warning shot for someone to act?


I still am hesitant to believe that poseidon has moved up to the level in your scum detector for me and saudade who you have given multiple reasons for reading as scum, while you are just trying to policy lynch poseidon at this point, when you are really sure that one of me or saudade is a scum

[DoubtingThomas]

I still am hesitant to believe that poseidon has moved up to the level in your scum detector for me and saudade who you have given multiple reasons for reading as scum, while you are just trying to policy lynch poseidon at this point, when you are really sure that one of me or saudade is a scum

In my opinion, this seems like your attempt to join the hottest wagon.

It seems like many people agree that the top scum picks are me, saudade, and poseidon.

and you joining the last wagon seems the most suspicious out of the core-4 group (umlaut,nonny,twain,yoshi) that's agreeing on those scum picks

[DoubtingThomas]

>I don't quite see why you don't think me-saudade scum couple is not possible.
You still got that backwards. You're a candidate for being Mr. Scum Mafino, while Saudade is a candidate for being Mr. Maf Scumino. So it's not you and Saudade that can't be the scumteam.

This is what I mean though.

If you are so sure about me being Mr. Scum Mafino and Saudaded is the most likely candidate for being Mr. Maf Scumino, why not vote one of the two?

Instead of voting Poseidon who you have very little information of and is not reading as a top scum?

Townies should try to vote their top scum pick, not a target that's most likely to get lynched, especially when there is very little information about them.

Whether you dislike his play and believe it's subject to policy lynch is a different story than you voting a 3rd person that is nowhere near scum-like (according to your posts of reads) because he doesn't seem to be engaging.

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't think you understand my vote on Poseidon yet.

>Poseidon refuses to get involved, which is scummy
>gets voted for it
>he either gets involved, in which case everything goes right and the wagon dissipates
>or he continues to refuse, which gives reason to actually maintain the vote on it

Before going back to anything else, the Poseidon situation must be cleared out because it's the most jarring.

If he starts to get involved now after his wagon starts, I don't think it would necessarily mean his wagon will dissipate. We have to see what he says.

[DoubtingThomas]

In my opinion, this seems like your attempt to join the hottest wagon.

Suppose Poseidon is town. What's the scum motivation for TWAIN to make a highly conspicuous vote against a player who's going to flip green, and of whom she hasn't shown any prior suspicion?

If this is what you make of TWAIN's L-1, what should others make of your willingness to hammer?

He has an easy scapegoat (the person who actually hammers) should Poseidon flip green. He looks townie for 'actively trying to scumhunt a lurker who shows lacking effort to be involved in this game -- exactly something he is doing even right now.

I don't care what others make of my willingness to hammer, I really don't like the idea of one day phase lasting like a whole week (now that nonny is MIA for like 4 days, also..)

[DoubtingThomas]

Light Ethos - Low contribution... perhaps motivation shows that he's a town, but just hasn't done anything so can't say

null to slight town

Is the "slight town" only by PoE? Otherwise I don't really get it. I believe that Light Ethos really is preoccupied with other things and that this is NAI. Do you have any doubts about that?

yes, relative to other scum reads I have. I really don't like how he has 3 posts, and 66% of it is just him saying I will post soon. More focus on 'null' here, I guess.

Poseidon and Sausade - Low contribution, and says some dumb things. I'd like to think these kind of plays as town lean because again, scum wants to please people and get not voted as much as they can, especially on D1.

town lean

I don't really see how you can lump these two together. Saudade is saying quite a bit now and what he's saying probably merits some comment, whereas Poseidon is explicitly saying he doesn't plan to play the game until tomorrow. Anyway, I wonder if you already had this town lean on Poseidon when you stated intent to hammer him in 134?

I lumped them together because they both made me laugh.

Poseidon - "So you’re keeping a vote on me that was an initial RV for sh*ts and giggles, because I haven’t been contributing to the TWAIN debate? Aight."

Saudade - "Oh dear Mr TWIN imagine believing im mafia when every post from me(there were only 2) this far into the very short 4 page game was absolutely not game related"

Both made me laugh and, consequently, made me have a somewhat similar image of them unconsciously, I guess. And that they were both criticized for low activity early on. Yes, I know Saudade have really stepped up his game and all, but most, if not all, of his posts are like one sentences long, and without much thought, I put him at lower contribution player. Contribution wise, I agree Saudade is far superior to Poseidon.

Umlaut - I've mentioned multiple times that I like his play. seems townie. the only problem I have with him is that he starts a conversation with me, then decides to 'not want to tunnel me' by staying on my vote and ignoring my responses. Really toxic play as town. Again, it's so toxic and scummy that it's probably what a town would do. I don't think he would overplay like this in a townie game. Still his essential tunneling makes him less townie than before. I still like his reaction to the L-1 vote and that he points out what's scummy about me, although not quite convinced. downgrade to

slight town

Probably better to let others comment on this one, but I'll say I think you should focus less on how people interact with you specifically if you're trying to sort them.

I didn't get too much out of your interaction with others, because a lot of it was to me/about me.

LaserGuy - I honestly see nothing really on him. Others have put him at town, and I put him at some town to some degree early game, but I am definitely always skeptical of putting someone at town or scum over the first few posts. I like his consistent inquisitorial behavior towards me, but it's quite hard to tell, as it will be extremely easy for scums to just follow on the DT bandwagon. nothing scummy, but it's hard to really get a strong town read from his play. I also think his post #146 "Reading it over, my first instinct is this sounds like scum giving up on a buddy." is a little quick to judgement without explanation, but I mean everyone reads me as scum, so I guess it's hard to help it. I do not like, however, that he voted me 3 minutes after he has posted post #146 on post #147. I mean.. why did you take 2~3 minutes to vote me on a separate post? [.v]DoubtingtThomas[/v] doesn't take that long to post? Maybe just real life? but weird indeed. Less townie than before... close to

null

What's the most plausible town reason for taking a few minutes to vote after that post? What's the most plausible scum reason? Which of these is more likely? Answering questions like this may help you sort LaserGuy.

Taking 'real life' as a reason for voting late. I think most likely explanation if he is scum is he is too focused on his scum game that he forgot the point of the game as a town is to find scum and vote him. That's why he voted me a bit late, because he was unoccupied by the thought of voting. As a town, well I don't think there would be any logical reason for it in terms of it being part of the game. As town, he should have voted in the same post when he really thought I was a definite scum -- enough to vote for me.

Let me ask yoshi the same question --

What would scum!DoubtingThomas get out of by giving up on a buddy that said 4 things on Day 1?

nonny - Although I've been 'tunneling' on her. (yes, I legitimately saw her as scum, but I also exaggerated my interactions and reactions on purpose to see others' reactions as well as hers) I really like that she is consistent with her behavior of not putting a read list. If I advocated that hard for her to push a read list, most scums and even less established townies would have come up with some sort of compromise, she simply ignored me. That's an excellent attitude as a town, and I like to give her more credit. Although, if I were to bet money on whether or not she is a scum or town, I might have to go with scum because of my previous scum reads which I think are legitimate, she is definitely less scummy

still scum lean, however

Assuming this is a legit read, I think it's a bit self-centered in that you are putting undue weight on nonny's pushes against you specifically. I'm guilty of this myself sometimes, when I start thinking anyone who claims they can't see my Aura of Towniness must be either blind or lying, but it's an error when I do it and it's an error when you do it too. Also, if you are putting out artificially exaggerated interactions and reactions you should expect to get scumread for looking artificial and hyperreactive.

go ISO her.

It's literally because most of his posts are about something towards TWAIN/read about me/and like 1 or 2 posts about Saudade demanding a summary of the last few pages

How can I not be self centered talking about her if 80% of the content she posted is about me/responding to me? lol

I am repeating it for like the fifth time. How does a town not have much comment on none of the players? The only thought of scum hunting she's contributed is how she thinks yoshi is town (following TWAIN) how she thinks TWAIN is town (like everyone else) and how she agrees with you about ignoring me.

TWAIN - Got town read by many people by two posts at the beginning, but I am not too convinced, as that kind of posts are easy enough for scums to say to get town read. Hard reads me and sausade as top two scum, but then votes Poseidon over one "anti-town" post, while saying "Terrible answer. Let's make you less indifferent." As if he's pressure voting Poseidon to get a reaction. correct me if I am wrong, but I think earlier in the post TWAIN was the one who pointed out to nonny or someone else that he is not fond of pressure voting? Although a lot of his posts seem towny, he's done many actions that are contradictory and scummy. He is one of the only 'newbs' in this newbie game that doesn't play like a newb, so I feel like he's capable of these plays as scum...

This is his logic of putting umlaut as town, but I more or so inquired a lot, and have been in active scumhunting as well, but he puts me at hard scum..... because I am more aggressive? and have different opinions to him? evolved from townish to

null to scum

I can understand discounting early "towny" posts as something scum could emulate, but I don't see pressure-voting Poseidon as contradictory at all, and I'm not sure what else you find contradictory. The last sentence just strikes me as "I'm salty about being scumread when I'm doing all the right things." I don't think you can disagree that my play and your play are markedly different (or else it's hilarious that you say my play is anti-town and toxic) so there's no reason someone should have the same read on both of us.

Btw DT, this is the exact comment I made in regards to pressure voting.

Now, I agree with you that players need to participate, but ideally your vote should be cast on your most comfortable scumread. Pressure voting others to get active

should probably be done after firing a warning shot.

There's no contradiction with my vote on him, which occurred less than two hours after that post, mind you, so I was in full awareness of it as well.

??? If you say "ideally your vote should be cast on your most comfortable scumread", but your most comfortable scumreads are me and/or Saudade, but you are voting Poseidon. Isn't that not ideal in your standard?

I still don't think it's necessary to fire a warning shot when pressure voting already acts as a warning itself.

for the last bit : I wasn't talking about playstyle. I was talking about the actions TWAIN used to town read you was done exactly by me, so why is he on the other hand scum reading me? is what I am asking.

[DoubtingThomas]

@LaserGuy

What do you make of [134]? I'm confident you're town and I think you're less sold on DT-is-scum than I am, so I'd like a second opinion before I drive any deeper into this tunnel.

Reading it over, my first instinct is this sounds like scum giving up on a buddy.

Really? That's not what I got at all. If DT and Poseidon were both scum, I'd expect scum!DT would rather hold out for Poseidon to be replaced, and would either say so explicitly or else call everyone idiots for wanting to lynch an inactive and bring out the "too scummy to be scum" defense yet again. And if he were giving up on his buddy I'd expect him to explicitly call out said buddy as scummy, whereas DT never expressed suspicion of Poseidon even in 134 itself.

(If a genie told me the scumteam is exactly DoubtingThomas-Poseidon I would guess not that DT was busing, but that his intent to hammer wasn't genuine in the first place and was calculated specifically to provoke "no, don't hammer" reactions that he could cite later as a reason for being off the wagon.)

What I took from it, given that DT never expressed suspicion of Poseidon even in 134 itself, was more that

if

Poseidon is town then DT was scum seizing on an opportunity to end a day that's gone very badly for him.

That's what I am trying to get at.

How like is it for scum!DT to bus scum!Poseidon when Poseidon said like 4 things

[DoubtingThomas]

mod I will be v/la from tomorrow 7/27 until 7/31

I will be able to post some but

will only be mobile (and I hate posting while mobile) and not sure of access the whole time.

you made it sound like it was unlikely for you to get really involved..

[DoubtingThomas]

What I took from it, given that DT never expressed suspicion of Poseidon even in 134 itself, was more that

if

Poseidon is town then DT was scum seizing on an opportunity to end a day that's gone very badly for him.

Or DT is really town and just tired of half the people not really saying much and would like to see where to go from with more information available in d2

[DoubtingThomas]

Is it possible to ask for a substitute if poseidon and/or light ethos maintain having like one post a day?

Like If they came to post once only when they are prodded, do they get to stay in the game?

[DoubtingThomas]

If you're town, then your reads are truthful, which is to say you lean town on Poseidon. That means if you had hammered him, as you stated intent to do in 134, you'd expect the most probable outcome to be that town!Poseidon is lynched day 1 and then town!you are lynched day 2 because of the hammer, putting us at 5-player LyLo without anything more to go on than what we have now. Is "I want the day to end" really a sufficient reason to put your team in that position?

no, it's not.

but I am not sure if 4 of the people on Poseidon wagon includes a scum. I think there's a higher probability that this is the case, but I can't be sure.

If all 4 are townie, then there's a high chance that Poseidon is a scum. If one of the four is scum, there's still a chance that Poseidon is a scum.

I didn't hammer, I just posted my intent to hammer, and didn't hammer after the deadline was reached. And Poseidon is still not back.

What are you questioning me for?

[DoubtingThomas]

That's fine.

I signed up for the game, so I will respect the rules

can I ask the mod to prod Poseidon

[DoubtingThomas]

In otherwords, there is towncred to be given only because publicly laid out a reason for towncred to be given, whereas prior to it (when the wagon formed) there was no towncred to be earned.

>I made my case in order to clear the three of you out in my reads (well Umlaut was already town, but I very much had nothing on Light).

Dude, I am so confused.

Are you essentially saying there is only town cred given to them only because you publicly said there is towncred for them after the vote happened?

TWAIN, I'm really not buying your statement that scum wouldn't be on town!Poseidon's wagon. There are a lot of problems with it:

• Empirically, all-town mislynches are just really rare, so my prior for this is pretty low.
  
• Light Ethos' vote has been parked there since RVS and should probably be taken as NAI.
  
• nonny's vote predated Poseidon's worst posts by quite a bit and, even if she were scum and would prefer to keep him around, I could see her staying on the wagon for lack of a plausible reason to leave.
  
• I'm pretty sure that as scum I would totally have voted Poseidon exactly when I did.
  
• If you believe DoubtingThomas is scum, then you ought to believe scum would push any counterwagon they could get with DT under as much fire as he has been.

Hmm, I see where you're coming from.

>Empirically, all-town mislynches are just really rare, so my prior for this is pretty low.
I don't think that's really an issue on its own, if the circumstances allow it to happen, it can happen regardless of general rarity.

>Light Ethos' vote has been parked there since RVS and should probably be taken as NAI.
It was parked since RVS but it stopped being an RVS vote since 53, but I guess you can apply to him the point you applied to nonny instead.

>I'm pretty sure that as scum I would totally have voted Poseidon exactly when I did.
Can you explain the reasoning for that?

>If you believe DoubtingThomas is scum, then you ought to believe scum would push any counterwagon they could get with DT under as much fire as he has been.
Not sure on the any counterwagon part, because ultimately he'd just be in the centre of attention again D2. It wouldn't be farfetched to believe scum would at least try to divert the wagon towards someone with meaningful contributions.

Also none of your responses attempt to explain to umlaut why you believe there is certainly no scum in the poseidon wagon. seems scummy.

can you explain why there can't be a scum in the poseidon wagon?

[DoubtingThomas]

TWAIN, I'm really not buying your statement that scum wouldn't be on town!Poseidon's wagon. There are a lot of problems with it:

• Empirically, all-town mislynches are just really rare, so my prior for this is pretty low.
  
• Light Ethos' vote has been parked there since RVS and should probably be taken as NAI.
  
• nonny's vote predated Poseidon's worst posts by quite a bit and, even if she were scum and would prefer to keep him around, I could see her staying on the wagon for lack of a plausible reason to leave.
  
• I'm pretty sure that as scum I would totally have voted Poseidon exactly when I did.
  
• If you believe DoubtingThomas is scum, then you ought to believe scum would push any counterwagon they could get with DT under as much fire as he has been.

[DoubtingThomas]

Oh jesus christ this site relies so much on metagame from a players' previous game its boring

this is true. unnecessary at this point of the game, especially

[DoubtingThomas]

MOD DECISION: I will allow

Light Ethos

to continue playing after a conversation in PMs and the current lack of response to the "need replacement" post in the queue.

Yuuhuuu Light Ethos is back, felt kinda bad that he was removed after that long paragraph he wrote which of course I didnt read

lmfao, this guy just has too much chill. i really hope he's a townie

[DoubtingThomas]

TWAIN, I'm really not buying your statement that scum wouldn't be on town!Poseidon's wagon. There are a lot of problems with it:

• Empirically, all-town mislynches are just really rare, so my prior for this is pretty low.
  
• Light Ethos' vote has been parked there since RVS and should probably be taken as NAI.
  
• nonny's vote predated Poseidon's worst posts by quite a bit and, even if she were scum and would prefer to keep him around, I could see her staying on the wagon for lack of a plausible reason to leave.
  
• I'm pretty sure that as scum I would totally have voted Poseidon exactly when I did.
  
• If you believe DoubtingThomas is scum, then you ought to believe scum would push any counterwagon they could get with DT under as much fire as he has been.

Man, I can't explain why but the 4th and 5th point seems really townie for some reason.

and one thing that I am 99.9% sure from umlaut - twain exchange in the last page up to this page is they are probably not a scum team together.


I also don't know why TWAIN is seeing me as a scum. He's given me one of the reason is that

>>200

>for the last bit : I wasn't talking about playstyle. I was talking about the actions TWAIN used to town read you was done exactly by me, so why is he on the other hand scum reading me? is what I am asking.
Because you also manage to be wrong on numerous accounts, while Umlaut's reasoning lines up in many cases with my own.

but.... townie (especially on a newbie game and I am newb as fuck???) can be wrong on many accounts. Hack, it should be more townie that they are wrong, because scum!newbie has more information than scum!townie.

can you give me an exact reason to why you are scum reading me this hard?

just because i am picking fights with everyone? isn't it possible for town to be doing that too?

[DoubtingThomas]

@DT:
>there's still what I addressed in 109, and your subsequent reply and exchange with Umlaut didn't convince me otherwise
>you claimed I claimed to be hard scumreading you and Saudade, which I didn't, and I still don't do, an important factor in me thinking you two are the scumteam being the lack of scummy behaviour from other players, prior to Poseidon pulling his stunt (but now that that's resolved, he's back on null)
>you never delivered on mallow's question to you

If you really are town, then your misplays are entirely on you. But as I said, I lack the reasons to be scumreading other people as well.

Can you stop saying stupid shit?

This question of mallows:

@Doubting Thomas

-Why does my bad vibes about Umlaut seem okay to you but when Laserguy does it it isn't an acceptable reason?

I don't really like how Umlaut came off with his statement asking you if you were serious, it seemed accusatory. I think Umlaut might be trying to do reads but something feels off about the way he's going about it.

I have to agree with mallow here.

Something about that seems highly artificial.

Starting off with kind of defending my two hammer votes, then quickly positioning into pointing out TWAIN.

Then saying, it's not a random pick without further explanation.

I will actually stay on my vote for umlaut

When I read this I assumed you weren't serious, but your follow-up in 16 implies you were to some degree. Are you actually townreading this post?

Yes, it's a real read. I'm not going to claim it's super solid, but in early D1, I usually can get a few decent reads based on feel. I got a good vibe from that post, so I said as much. As an added bonus, putting my thoughts out there early gives people something to talk about that isn't just meme-posting. FWIW, I think nonny is also Town.

As for the why of it, my feeling is that his joke comes from a townie mindset. Mafia tend to be more... mmm... self-conscious in talking about killing, and I think it's somewhat unlikely that TWAIN would have chosen to write that post if he were mafia.

can you be a little more descriptive than 'got a good vibe' and 'mmm... self-conscious' in your two town reads for them?

was answered here:

@Doubting Thomas

-Why does my bad vibes about Umlaut seem okay to you but when Laserguy does it it isn't an acceptable reason?

I don't really like how Umlaut came off with his statement asking you if you were serious, it seemed accusatory. I think Umlaut might be trying to do reads but something feels off about the way he's going about it.

I have to agree with mallow here.

Something about that seems highly artificial.

Starting off with kind of defending my two hammer votes, then quickly positioning into pointing out TWAIN.

Then saying, it's not a random pick without further explanation.

I will actually stay on my vote for umlaut

When I read this I assumed you weren't serious, but your follow-up in 16 implies you were to some degree. Are you actually townreading this post?

Yes, it's a real read. I'm not going to claim it's super solid, but in early D1, I usually can get a few decent reads based on feel. I got a good vibe from that post, so I said as much. As an added bonus, putting my thoughts out there early gives people something to talk about that isn't just meme-posting. FWIW, I think nonny is also Town.

As for the why of it, my feeling is that his joke comes from a townie mindset. Mafia tend to be more... mmm... self-conscious in talking about killing, and I think it's somewhat unlikely that TWAIN would have chosen to write that post if he were mafia.

can you be a little more descriptive than 'got a good vibe' and 'mmm... self-conscious' in your two town reads for them?

That's not quite what I meant.

I was never in disapproval of Yoshi's bad vibe, nor in approval of your bad vibe.

I agreed with your bad vibe, because I got the same vibe, and tried to explain why I got that vibe. ( which, btw, was criticized by umlaut for looking like "he just agrees with mallows and doesn't add actual content")

I disagreed with Yoshi's bad vibe, and wanted to know what exactly made him get that bad vibe, because I wanted to know what I missed and maybe give him my opinion of him why I didn't think it was bad vibey for me.

[DoubtingThomas]

@DT:
>there's still what I addressed in 109, and your subsequent reply and exchange with Umlaut didn't convince me otherwise
>you claimed I claimed to be hard scumreading you and Saudade, which I didn't, and I still don't do, an important factor in me thinking you two are the scumteam being the lack of scummy behaviour from other players, prior to Poseidon pulling his stunt (but now that that's resolved, he's back on null)
>you never delivered on mallow's question to you

If you really are town, then your misplays are entirely on you. But as I said, I lack the reasons to be scumreading other people as well.

Like do you understand why I would be frustrated?

You are giving me shit for "not answering people's questions" and 'twisting others' words" or:

>>282

I'm talking about being factually wrong, not merely having an opinion I dissent with.

but in fact, I am trying really hard to answer people's questions and it's pretty damn clear no one gives a hoot about how I answer them. And it looks like you don't even read everything I write.

As you were 'factually wrong' about me not answering mallows' qeustions and using that to scum read me, with the same logic I am going to scum read you, and your misplays on you, ok bro?

VOTE: twain

[DoubtingThomas]

@DT:
>there's still what I addressed in 109, and your subsequent reply and exchange with Umlaut didn't convince me otherwise
>you claimed I claimed to be hard scumreading you and Saudade, which I didn't, and I still don't do, an important factor in me thinking you two are the scumteam being the lack of scummy behaviour from other players, prior to Poseidon pulling his stunt (but now that that's resolved, he's back on null)
>you never delivered on mallow's question to you

If you really are town, then your misplays are entirely on you. But as I said, I lack the reasons to be scumreading other people as well.

all of your points that you address to scumread me can be done by a town, and it doesn't make sense for you to be only scumreading me.

Effectively, the only REAL reason you are giving me for scum reading me is that "others are harder to scumread for" and sounds completely bs

You say you are not 'hard scumreading' me but you are just twisting your own words here. You put both me and Saudade at highest likely scum read, and that is (relatively) the strongest scum read you have

you are jumping all over the places and once you 'town credited' yourself by saying there is 'town credit' when you say there is on everyone who was on poseidon wagon (which still doesn't make sense so help me understand this point?),

you immediately go back to saying "ok poseidon is clear! you and saudade is probably mafia hahaha!"


All of this just sounds like a scum trying to poke around everywhere to try to lynch a town

[DoubtingThomas]

I'd explain but I know how you feel about paragraphs.

explain

[DoubtingThomas]

@Umlaut: fair enough. It won't discourage the reads I have (sure, that's not to say it doesn't make them weaker), but I understand where you're coming from.

Hey let me translate this in scumish

"fine umlaut, you are right that my futile attempt to townread everyone who was on the town wagon that i hopped on last has no basis on logic, but i am still going to insist that what i said is true because if i back now it looks hella scummy"

[DoubtingThomas]

More Scumish Translation:

>145 and 240 suggest it actually carried some intent to lynch.
I'm struggling to see it honestly, even from a grasping at straws perspective.

"Hey, let's not turn away from the DT wagon I just created. Stop looking at nonny"

As far as the rest of your point on nonny goes, I understand it (I even addressed her myself with the warning shot stuff), but as I said, scum!nonny would probably have a field day getting town!DT lynched, so diverting attention would be a bit ?? from a scum perspective.

"But if I don't entirely agree with your post filled with legitimate accusations, I will look suspicious. So yea, "I can understand it, but I disagree because if DT is scum (who I am leading the wagon for) then nonny can't be scum because she has easy shot at lynching town!DT"


* wait hold up this phrase looks really suspicious. is it just me?

[DoubtingThomas]

Top townread?
Kinda meh towards everyone. I'm not feeling too much negativity towards TWAIN I guess.

are you able to show me why you feel this way or is it just a general vibe you've gotten that you can't really explain why?

[DoubtingThomas]

>What are your thoughts on Umlaut? Could you see him being scum?
He's carrying the town hard and hasn't made any post that's deliberately wrong.

How is he carrying town hard if his best scum read is me (who is town. obviously you don't believe me, but say IF i am town)

what has he done for you to say 'he's carrying town hard'. He seems like he's been circling around possible scum candidates and now is starting to doubt his own scum read of me.

sure, he's being town read by a lot, but that doesn't make him 'carry town'. can you explain in what way he has carried town? except maybe point a few game mechanic pointers -- like telling people not to hammer poseidon... but that's not really 'carry-like' i don't think. anyone can really say that.

this sounds awfully like a scummy post where you try to buddy umlaut HARD without much basis

[DoubtingThomas]

How is he carrying town hard if his best scum read is me (who is town. obviously you don't believe me, but say IF i am town)

what has he done for you to say 'he's carrying town hard'.

I am especially emphasizing this point because you said it your self

1) You aren't hard scum reading me
2) The main reason why you are scum voting me is because others are less scum-like

however your statement saying he's hard carrying town puts a tremendous emphasis on umlaut's top scum read -- me.

How can you be sure that umlaut is carrying town with a scum read that you yourself, and he himself, is not sure of?

are you trying to imply that i am actually highly likely scum, which is contradictory to what you've been saying about me?

For me, it seems like umlaut is being widely townread, but certainly isn't carrying anyone in any way.

[DoubtingThomas]

>

The

only

way I could see him be scum is if he intentionally posts with a completely town mindset

A.Every mafia player I believe is trying to post with a town mind-set? Some players are better at it than others

Wow, I didn't even realize how bad this one sounds.

TWAIN, are you thinking that mafias are posting everything in mafia mindset?

So you are thinking (as you put me in your top scum right now) I am writing all this in a mafia mindset, not a town mindset???

[DoubtingThomas]

>What are your thoughts on Umlaut? Could you see him being scum?
He's carrying the town hard and hasn't made any post that's deliberately wrong.

How is he carrying town hard if his best scum read is me (who is town. obviously you don't believe me, but say IF i am town)

what has he done for you to say 'he's carrying town hard'. He seems like he's been circling around possible scum candidates and now is starting to doubt his own scum read of me.

sure, he's being town read by a lot, but that doesn't make him 'carry town'. can you explain in what way he has carried town? except maybe point a few game mechanic pointers -- like telling people not to hammer poseidon... but that's not really 'carry-like' i don't think. anyone can really say that.

this sounds awfully like a scummy post where you try to buddy umlaut HARD without much basis

I actually agree with your disagreement with what TWAIN wrote. I'm only carrying town if my reads are actually correct

and

if I manage to get them lynched, and we don't know either of those things yet.

I am starting to think that this is a scum slip where he mistakenly solidifies his position -- that I am scum -- as infallible.

Which is never ideal as a town, and rarely happens as a town, especially when he himself has announced that he doesn't hard scum read me, but only puts me at scum because everyone else is less-scummy.

So this is a definite contradiction

[DoubtingThomas]

@DT-Who would you say is your top 2 scum reads right now?

I think TWAIN is the most scummy out of everyone.

This list is followed by nonny, and well, those who participate less (mallow/poseidon/light ethos, laser guy) and umlaut.

Most townie for me is Saudade.

IF TWAIN is a scum, however, I don't think nonny is more likely to be scum.

I think it's highly likely that TWAIN's scum pair is one of the quieter ones, as he mentioned it in his own post:

I could see him be scum is if he intentionally posts with a completely town mindset while instructing his partner to lay fairly low, so as to avoid scumreading him unnecessarily. So his partner would be among Light, LaserGuy and Saudade. Probably not you because you'd be bringing unnecessary attention with your vote on him, and very doubtfully Light, since his AFK issues are genuine.

Perhaps this could be a plan that he has used up to this point.

This would make light, laserguy, poseidon, all more scummy than nonny.

TWAIN - umlaut interaction seemed pretty genuinely between non-teammates, so scum!TWAIN will make umlaut more townie, but OF COURSE i could be wrong about that..

[DoubtingThomas]

So can umlaut or TWAIN explain again what TWAIN was talking about how town credit claiming a group of people itself makes the town credit legitimate?

i still don't get how that works

and why TWAIN doesn't believe that a scum could have joined on that poseidon wagon. just seems like a frame that TWAIN is making to make those who didn't jump on the wagon (me and saudade, specifically, obviously..) more scummy without a logical basis

[DoubtingThomas]

I'm referring to the creation of content. He goes out of his way to find matters worth discussing and expanding on.

Sir, I am afraid that's what everyone is, or at least attempting to do.

It would have been less suspicious of you to admit you phrased that statement poorly, yet you are trying to defend that weak statement of yours that even umlaut himself is wondering about...

interesting, indeed.

[DoubtingThomas]

>It would have been less suspicious of you to admit you phrased that statement poorly
And is my post not obviously implying you misunderstood my statement?

I mean with this logic, town will always be 'misunderstanding' what scums try to say.

I am just pointing out the fact that you try to befriend umlaut illogically.

I've never seen a town say another town is 'carrying town' at D1, when no one has flipped anything to see if that town was correctly carrying the town.

I am just wondering why you thought he was carrying the town, when neither he nor you can be sure that he's correct or not correct.

Maybe you already know he's correct, or maybe you want to compliment him for no reason.

either way... it's terribly suspicious

[DoubtingThomas]

DT; who are you addressing in 341?

no one in particular,

it's just an add-on on what umlaut has said. Kind of like a thinking out loud moment.

Perhaps when Archimedes has exclaimed "Eureka" from the bathtub.

feeling strongly that I have found the scum, so I wanted to say it out loud.

Also writing things out also helps me think better and more straight

[DoubtingThomas]

Gave some thought to what Umlaut asked Saudade, and I've come to a realisation.

If

Poseidon is town, then

nobody

currently in the wagon is scum. And the reason is simple: scum would want him to actually survive, because he'd be the perfect townie to end up with in LyLo.

Yeah, so I am trying really hard to understand what TWAIN was trying to say.

Can someone correct me, am I understanding this right?

TWAIN's reason for town reading everyone in the poseidon wagon is that because poseidon is so suspicious, scum would want poseidon to be alive until LYLO?

Given that TWAIN is very insistent to read everyone on the poseidon wagon as town, is he assuming this 'if' to be true?

And if poseidon is actually scum, he's assuming that no one would be trying to bus?

It seems really radical to conclude all these points as a town, even though all of these could indeed be happening.

Not only that, what's more suspicious is his constant insistence on town reading everyone on the wagon. It's like even though multiple people have pointed this out (not just me and Saudade, but umlaut, and others are now starting to pick up, I think), TWAIN is covering his ears and saying, "well, I understand you have your point, but I am going to continue to see the way I want to see"

Which is again, a very weird behavior for town to act.

@Umlaut: fair enough. It won't discourage the reads I have (sure, that's not to say it doesn't make them weaker), but I understand where you're coming from.

He was trying to convince everyone about this point really hard, even though the essence of the logic is hard for me to even understand.


Please correct me, again, if I am not understanding this correctly. I am just so confused right now.

[DoubtingThomas]

While more likely, I find it unlikely enough to grant this read. Basically, what I said back then amounts to: if Poseidon is town, everyone in the wagon is town; if Poseidon is scum, then everyone is still most likely town, but there is the possibility of bussing, which I find it to be unoptimal play for scum in day 1.

why can't a scum vote for poseidon if he's town, again?

and it seemed like you were very strong about your position regarding that vote, almost to omit the possibility of bussing there with this quote

@Umlaut: fair enough. It won't discourage the reads I have (sure, that's not to say it doesn't make them weaker), but I understand where you're coming from.

are you just going to say I am misunderstanding you again?

[DoubtingThomas]

>>357
>This is also weird because by the same logic, DoubtingThomas is not scum for posting intent, yet TWAIN continues to scumread there.
Intent isn't more than a promise to vote if he defendant's answer isn't enough to sway him. It's not a vote. Also, DT's status became highly ambiguous after his deadline passed, because he never mentioned whether he maintained intent or not.

So, I am still not seeing much about your reason to tunnel me.

So it's not because I showed intent to vote for Poseidon, and it can't just be because I am factually wrong.

It's just... whatever I said made me look scummy? for you to basically townread everyone else except maybe saudade? because that's what I am getting from your past posts.

I am still suspicious of umlaut, nonny, light, yoshi, poseidon, etc. But from what you are telling me, you are top scum reading me, but not "hard", yet still putting close to no effort in finding other scums except with defending yourself -- at least this was the case for the last good bulk of the posts you've made.

showed no interest in scum hunting, even though you don't have a strong scum read. only a relative read on me.

[DoubtingThomas]

Sorry for being lazy for the past couple hours (close to like 1.5 day I think), guys.

But it looks like TWAIN is ignoring my question in post #362 and my other claims #364 (even though he's been very active in just pin pointing things I say that he doesn't agree with), so it doesn't look like I have missed too much.

I skimmed the pages, and I will try to go back to see if there's anything I want to refer to later, but for now, I'd like to say I am still very comfortable with where my vote is, especially that TWAIN seems to play extra reclusive all of a sudden that everyone is targeting him.

His Doc claim is interesting, certainly a good play as a scum, and probably as a doc, but if you really are a doc, @TWAIN, I have no doubt you understand why it's still so tempting to lynch you even if there were no counter claims.

[DoubtingThomas]

My thought process right now is that if TWAIN is scum and an actual doc is out there, although Umlaut's way of playing doc is definitely feasible, doc would now understand TWAIN is a scum and would be willing to vote for TWAIN, unless Saudade is a doc.

Saudade's quick change of vote to umlaut and mallow seems interesting, now I think there's a possibility of TWAIN-Saudade team that I have not seen before.

TWAIN: Saudade, if you really are town: congrats, your reads you so trust so much are rubbish.
Saudade: Your gameplay is rubbish

seems pretty idk, lmao. maybe forced. who knows.

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't feel comfortable lynching potential doctor day one Umlaut

I know, I might want to go back and ISO twain, not sure if I have that much time when we are so close to the deadline though..

but from the memories I have of him, he was tunneling me so hard, and I personally think docs generally don't play this aggro because they don't want to get themselves in a position where they are noticeable enough to be a lynch target and having to claim -- like what he's done.

of course, there are different situations and ways people play the game, but (I am sorry for keep referring to meta) TWAIN seemed a lot more thoughtful, careful, and an analytical player when I saw him play as town in 1880 (which, btw I don't see in this game. he's generally just following what most people's read on me was and saying I am just factually wrong wrong wrong. no emphasis on the way I vote or anything else he's done previously)

this is what gets me the most

[DoubtingThomas]

DT

Post 200 and 201 are good interaction and questioning of Twain

If you're town, then your reads are truthful, which is to say you lean town on Poseidon. That means if you had hammered him, as you stated intent to do in 134, you'd expect the most probable outcome to be that town!Poseidon is lynched day 1 and then town!you are lynched day 2 because of the hammer, putting us at 5-player LyLo without anything more to go on than what we have now. Is "I want the day to end" really a sufficient reason to put your team in that position?

no, it's not.

but I am not sure if 4 of the people on Poseidon wagon includes a scum. I think there's a higher probability that this is the case, but I can't be sure.

If all 4 are townie, then there's a high chance that Poseidon is a scum. If one of the four is scum, there's still a chance that Poseidon is a scum.

I didn't hammer, I just posted my intent to hammer, and didn't hammer after the deadline was reached. And Poseidon is still not back.

What are you questioning me for?

Why? Why didn't you hammer at your self appointed deadline? You never really stated that I could find.

and one thing that I am 99.9% sure from umlaut - twain exchange in the last page up to this page is they are probably not a scum team together.

Who could you see as scum with twain? (the interaction actually pinged me as Umlaut maybe being Twain partner but only if done with purpose)

This is a hard question. But as I have mentioned in my previous post, if scum!twain was true, then, AS OF RIGHT NOW, I see that one of the quieter ones are more likely to be mafia with him.

I am starting to see a progression of seeing umlaut townie in a lesser degree, and with this post, you are moving up a slot in my townie radar (meaning, getting more townie). With the most recent change of vote from TWAIN to stop a L-1, Saudade seems a little less certain townie, as I don't see a legitimate reason for him to move his vote from L-1 for TWAIN.

I'd like to see who gets shot at night, but I guess my top choices for TWAIN's scum pair is phantom, poseidon, mallows, and to a lesser degree, laserGuy who I have not seen too active recently.

oh and before you say, "you are misrepresenting others' logic and twisting others' words bla bla bla" because that's probably what you are going to say, as all that's happening all game long is umlaut, yoshi, nonny, and you saying the same exact line to put me at scum all game every game

i have slight dyslexia and i was trying to have an educated discussion with both umlaut and nonny who disliked my 'twisting of words' to explain that was not what i was trying to do,

but they got "too tired" of me saying shit to them, so i am really just sad here that i am misrepresented as misrepresenting others on purpose.

give another reason if you can please

Why not mention this sooner? Also, is english a second language? (don't take this as offensive, that's just were I usually see the gender mixing happen i.e referring to one person as both she and he in the same post) Why didn't you talk about the misrepresentations, I may need to go back after all and see if I just read you as overtly aggressive, but you ignored our posts pointing out misrepresentations instead of address there may have been a communication barrier.

Perhaps it's a slight exaggeration that I 'have dyslexia', as I wasn't officially DIAGNOSED, but yes, I was reading really fast at work (pressured environment where I shouldn't be doing this) and reading is not my best subject, so it's probably not too far from the truth.

English IS my second language, but I don't think my lack of understanding of the language was the issue for referring you as he/she. I came to the states at the age of 8. Many people who come that early usually forgets their primary language, but I was fortunate enough to keep it, at the cost of demoting an excellent English skill to a still pretty good English skill level (I mean I got 4 on the English AP exam, go to college, work in professional environment, so I don't think my English is terrible). Most of the s/he mixup is probably because I was in a hustle when I wrote that and wasn't proof reading at all, etc. But yes, english is my second language and is not my strongest suit.

The ignoring or misrepresenting is probably a combination of skimming a lot, writing too quickly, and english not being my natural language, indeed. Let me know if my posts were pretty easy for you to tell that English was not natural for me. I am actually curious to see how it seems to strangers over the Internet, especially because I wanna know how bad I am at English lol (or at least how much it seems so when I am careless)

I will have to agree though, when I read re-read my posts myself, the quality of my writings was not a satisfactory level and made me feel real bad tho

>What are your thoughts on Umlaut? Could you see him being scum?
He's carrying the town hard and hasn't made any post that's deliberately wrong.

How is he carrying town hard if his best scum read is me (who is town. obviously you don't believe me, but say IF i am town)

what has he done for you to say 'he's carrying town hard'. He seems like he's been circling around possible scum candidates and now is starting to doubt his own scum read of me.

sure, he's being town read by a lot, but that doesn't make him 'carry town'. can you explain in what way he has carried town? except maybe point a few game mechanic pointers -- like telling people not to hammer poseidon... but that's not really 'carry-like' i don't think. anyone can really say that.

this sounds awfully like a scummy post where you try to buddy umlaut HARD without much basis

What if it was phrased as Umault is being the more proactive and therefore the most town? Kind of semantics. Agree you can't say anyone is carrying the town until we know where the town is going (or goes). Possible budding, yes.

This was me trying to point out one of the most likely possibilities of what TWAIN was doing (if scum!TWAIN).

TWAIN seemed to be in favor of Umlaut since (well, pretty much the beginning of the game), and that was the vibe I got -- his main reason for scumreading me was because umlaut/nonny/laserguy was scumreading me.

So I asked why he was putting Umlaut at town, and the reasons he gave to me were unsatisfactory, that I was factually wrong. This kind of implies that he's putting Umlaut at a certain town for only relatively reasons (compared to me, who was being widely scumread). I more wanted reasons for why UMLAUT was town.

I also think TWAIN wasn't active at all in trying to scumread others besides me. Which is --coincidentally -- very similar to what Umlaut was doing.

Their reads are so identical that, wow maybe they are umlaut-twain pair. Wouldn't be an impossibility, tbh, even though I think their initial interaction isn't team-like

[DoubtingThomas]

Why? Why didn't you hammer at your self appointed deadline? You never really stated that I could find.

Well, I never intended to fully hammer. Meaning, if Poseidon doesn't even say anything for 5 hours ish, (although he's been mia for longer than that overall) can I really lynch him? Also, I know this is also a bad habit to have, but his lack of motivation to play made me doubt a little bit that he's a mafia. If he was mafia, I think he would be around the thread more, or at least even if he was lurking, he'd say SOMETHING when I intend to har hammer like that. I also enjoyed the reactions I got from my intent to hammer. I should have made it clear that I never intended to hammer at 9 pm though, my mistake.

Who could you see as scum with twain? (the interaction actually pinged me as Umlaut maybe being Twain partner but only if done with purpose)

This is a hard question. But as I have mentioned in my previous post, if scum!twain was true, then, AS OF RIGHT NOW, I see that one of the quieter ones are more likely to be mafia with him.

I am starting to see a progression of seeing umlaut townie in a lesser degree, and with this post, you are moving up a slot in my townie radar (meaning, getting more townie). With the most recent change of vote from TWAIN to stop a L-1, Saudade seems a little less certain townie, as I don't see a legitimate reason for him to move his vote from L-1 for TWAIN.

I'd like to see who gets shot at night, but I guess my top choices for TWAIN's scum pair is phantom, poseidon, mallows, and to a lesser degree, laserGuy who I have not seen too active recently.

Why not mention this sooner? Also, is english a second language? (don't take this as offensive, that's just were I usually see the gender mixing happen i.e referring to one person as both she and he in the same post) Why didn't you talk about the misrepresentations, I may need to go back after all and see if I just read you as overtly aggressive, but you ignored our posts pointing out misrepresentations instead of address there may have been a communication barrier.

Perhaps it's a slight exaggeration that I 'have dyslexia', as I wasn't officially DIAGNOSED, but yes, I was reading really fast at work (pressured environment where I shouldn't be doing this) and reading is not my best subject, so it's probably not too far from the truth.

English IS my second language, but I don't think my lack of understanding of the language was the issue for referring you as he/she. I came to the states at the age of 8. Many people who come that early usually forgets their primary language, but I was fortunate enough to keep it, at the cost of demoting an excellent English skill to a still pretty good English skill level (I mean I got 4 on the English AP exam, go to college, work in professional environment, so I don't think my English is terrible). Most of the s/he mixup is probably because I was in a hustle when I wrote that and wasn't proof reading at all, etc. But yes, english is my second language and is not my strongest suit.

The ignoring or misrepresenting is probably a combination of skimming a lot, writing too quickly, and english not being my natural language, indeed. Let me know if my posts were pretty easy for you to tell that English was not natural for me. I am actually curious to see how it seems to strangers over the Internet, especially because I wanna know how bad I am at English lol (or at least how much it seems so when I am careless)

I will have to agree though, when I read re-read my posts myself, the quality of my writings was not a satisfactory level and made me feel real bad tho

What if it was phrased as Umault is being the more proactive and therefore the most town? Kind of semantics. Agree you can't say anyone is carrying the town until we know where the town is going (or goes). Possible budding, yes.

This was me trying to point out one of the most likely possibilities of what TWAIN was doing (if scum!TWAIN).

TWAIN seemed to be in favor of Umlaut since (well, pretty much the beginning of the game), and that was the vibe I got -- his main reason for scumreading me was because umlaut/nonny/laserguy was scumreading me.

So I asked why he was putting Umlaut at town, and the reasons he gave to me were unsatisfactory, that I was factually wrong. This kind of implies that he's putting Umlaut at a certain town for only relatively reasons (compared to me, who was being widely scumread). I more wanted reasons for why UMLAUT was town.

I also think TWAIN wasn't active at all in trying to scumread others besides me. Which is --coincidentally -- very similar to what Umlaut was doing.

Their reads are so identical that, wow maybe they are umlaut-twain pair. Wouldn't be an impossibility, tbh, even though I think their initial interaction isn't team-like.

too many quotes, I messed up a lot so I made it simpler, also missed a question, so added an answer

[DoubtingThomas]

So I am at L-1 now correct? Should I be claiming now?

Yes, or else I hammer your ass

[DoubtingThomas]

So I am at L-1 now correct? Should I be claiming now?

also, reads list on everyone, if you can. asap

[DoubtingThomas]

So I am at L-1 now correct? Should I be claiming now?

Yes, or else I hammer your ass

if I don't see anything by 9:15 AM EST I am hammering

[DoubtingThomas]

So I am at L-1 now correct? Should I be claiming now?

Yes, or else I hammer your ass

if I don't see anything by 9:15 AM EST I am hammering

That's 4 minutes left

[DoubtingThomas]

Nice Saudade got two PR's to claim lmfao

[DoubtingThomas]

That short-timeline demand for a claim was really anti-town.

How? I actually don't get it and I'd appreciate it if you can answer this as that person who is guiding newbies in a newbie game

I thought it was better to pressure mallows in case he was scum that was trying to plot with OR against TWAIN's doc claim, more opportunities to mess up


why am i always getting shit on for intenting to hammer, when I actually don't vote shit , hmm

[DoubtingThomas]

Who freaking said we had minutes left???

why did that bother you when you are a cop???

I mean I was the last to read you as scummy enough to vote, if anything

[DoubtingThomas]

I am salty that we have two PR's claimed and umlaut is trying to force votes on people like he's Vanilla GOD

[DoubtingThomas]

who fucking started mallows wagon.

it was you saudade. out of no where.

yet umlaut wants to vote me because i didn't vote on mallows yet

ok

[DoubtingThomas]

Had you been a bit more charismatic maybe people would've followed you instead of me DT

see this

how do I be more charismatic

teach me senpai

[DoubtingThomas]

That short-timeline demand for a claim was really anti-town.

How? I actually don't get it and I'd appreciate it if you can answer this as that person who is guiding newbies in a newbie game

I thought it was better to pressure mallows in case he was scum that was trying to plot with OR against TWAIN's doc claim, more opportunities to mess up


why am i always getting shit on for intenting to hammer, when I actually don't vote shit , hmm

See my 141 where I answered this already. In both Poseidon's and mallow's case you extracted a claim from someone you didn't actually intend to lynch. If it were good to extract claims from people we didn't want to lynch we would just massclaim at the start of the day.

Oh yeah because I can just magically make them claim

or 4 other people already have their votes on them that makes that situation happen

you are assuming only scums want to know people's claims that could be or not be false

[DoubtingThomas]

That short-timeline demand for a claim was really anti-town.

How? I actually don't get it and I'd appreciate it if you can answer this as that person who is guiding newbies in a newbie game

I thought it was better to pressure mallows in case he was scum that was trying to plot with OR against TWAIN's doc claim, more opportunities to mess up


why am i always getting shit on for intenting to hammer, when I actually don't vote shit , hmm

See my 141 where I answered this already. In both Poseidon's and mallow's case you extracted a claim from someone you didn't actually intend to lynch. If it were good to extract claims from people we didn't want to lynch we would just massclaim at the start of the day.

you are also assuming that I only intend to lynch my top scums (TWAIN). which is not the case.

in numerous posts I put mallows as null. If we can get some information to progress the game, I would always be okay with lynching? or intend to lynch?

[DoubtingThomas]

Had you been a bit more charismatic maybe people would've followed you instead of me DT

see this

how do I be more charismatic

teach me senpai

vote the guy im voting and I'll promise to give you some lessons

It seems like every time you are talking to me or about me (for example, to umlaut) you are putting me at a pretty solid town. is it true? if so, why?

[DoubtingThomas]

Why are you jumping down my throat about this? That was an IC statement and one you solicited from me.

ok, my bad on that. but you are using that to lynch me instead who many people do not want to.

this is actually extremely tunnely, you said my game improves, but every chance you get you try to vote me. which is weird because there are definitely people who are just lurking everyday, and could be a better candidate

[DoubtingThomas]

Why are you jumping down my throat about this? That was an IC statement and one you solicited from me.

ok, my bad on that. but you are using that to lynch me instead who many people do not want to.

this is actually extremely tunnely, you said my game improves, but every chance you get you try to vote me. which is weird because there are definitely people who are just lurking everyday, and could be a better candidate

Actually I just took my vote

off

of you and onto mallowgeno, one of those people who was just lurking and could be a better candidate. Nice try though.

If you want to lynch someone else, name them and tell me and everyone else why we should vote them. Right now your vote is still on TWAIN the claimed doctor.

and after mallows cop claimed you automatically put your vote back on me.... so obviously lynching a lurker wasn't your goal there

[DoubtingThomas]

Hold on, let me get this right. Did DT just intent to hammer a guy he didn't actually intend to hammer? Wew lad. For what it's worh, I won't fault Saudade for voting mallow, since mallow's play style was pretty passive, but damn.

Cobalt, you seem to be joining wagons just for the sake of joining wagons.

do you want to clarify everything I've questioned/mentioned before or just come in once things have settled down after your rather suspicious doc claim?

Life is pretty convenient as a PR, huh

[DoubtingThomas]

I claim town PR - flamethrowing dragon who kills mafias at night - anyone who lynches me is a dumbass

[DoubtingThomas]

Hold on, let me get this right. Did DT just intent to hammer a guy he didn't actually intend to hammer? Wew lad. For what it's worh, I won't fault Saudade for voting mallow, since mallow's play style was pretty passive, but damn.

Cobalt, you seem to be joining wagons just for the sake of joining wagons.

do you want to clarify everything I've questioned/mentioned before or just come in once things have settled down after your rather suspicious doc claim?

Life is pretty convenient as a PR, huh

I will, hold on to your horses.

No, you hold on to your horses before just coming in and saying: Hold on, let me get this right. Did DT just intent to hammer a guy he didn't actually intend to hammer?

because I literally explained that that was not true in the post above. what does it even mean to intent to hammer a guy i didn't actually intend to hammer?

stop playing with words all the low posting nulls are lynchable

[DoubtingThomas]

There's a chance that I might not be able to be here at EoD, so I'd appreciate it if we get this one going so we draw some sort of conclusion well before the actual EoD.

I'd like those who aren't here to talk more, if there is CC, I'd say prob do it cuz there's 2 town claim which is....... anyways..

@light @laserguy @nonny @poseidon

who am I missing

please fucking come and contribute BEFORE end of day :/

for the mean time, UNVOTE:

but I still have my eyes on you, Mr. Doctor

[DoubtingThomas]

>>362
>why can't a scum vote for poseidon if he's town, again?
I said that in the first post on the matter? Sure the idea doesn't hold as much water with Umlaut's observations and whatnot, and I've said as much, but it's a leap of faith I've continued to willingly take. Cobalt isn't really helping me here at all though.

>almost to omit the possibility of bussing there with this quote
Did you ever read 261?

>>364
>and it can't just be because I am factually wrong.
Why can it not? Either way, all my thoughts on you are out here, but if you dismiss them "this isn't real communism" style, there's not much I can do.

>yet still putting close to no effort in finding other scums except with defending yourself -- at least this was the case for the last good bulk of the posts you've made.
Maybe I've indeed become more laid back when I shouldn't have, I guess.

lol

and you still scum read me because... I am 'factually wrong' or I am 'relatively to umlaut' less logical?

What about the other clear lurkers? Thoughts on Cop claim by mallows?

do you care about this game at all

[DoubtingThomas]

I leave you guys alone for half a day and you out two PRs

UNVOTE:

I'm going to assume those claims are both true since a Town PR would have a solid counterclaim at this point.


VOTE: PhantomCobalt

can't assume that

because counterclaiming here is not necessarily a good move. both of them were nearly lynched and only claimed as their only way out, basically

if PR's counterclaim here to get a 1 kill for their position, that's not really good for town. In the scum's point of view, they never lose by fake claiming at their lynch bed, only gain additional information about PR's if they are counterclaimed

[DoubtingThomas]

I know what you think you learn if he flips red, but what do you learn if he flips green?

what does he think when he flips red?

[DoubtingThomas]

If scum!TWAIN faked claimed doc, then the real doc is alive, so mallows should be saved. This proves scum!TWAIN

If doc!TWAIN is true, then mallows would die because TWAIN got roleblocked. With mallow's death we can confirm doc!TWAIN

Is this chain of thought true or am I thinking wrong?

I feel like we can confirm TWAIN by tomorrow?

[DoubtingThomas]

>If scum!TWAIN faked claimed doc, then the real doc is alive
If scum!TWAIN fakeclaimed doc, not even the existence of a doc would be kniwn.

oh true, we might not even have a doc. I am not used to this set up I keep forgetting

[DoubtingThomas]

>If doc!TWAIN is true, then mallows would die because TWAIN got roleblocked. With mallow's death we can confirm doc!TWAIN
Mallow dying wouldn't confirm me as town. We may very well be on column 3 with scum!TWAIN.

I was thinking that doctor 100% exists, so if mallows were to die, that'd mean mafia roleblocked you. but if you doc is out there, he should be able to save mallows even if you are roleblocked (unless you get super lucky by roleblocking the actual hidden doc)

of course this theory doesn't work because doc isn't even here 100% of the time

[DoubtingThomas]

Which is why mallow would be the one to die in the first place, and not me. There is only one scenario in which I die at night 1.

I sincerely doubt you will die at all at night 1 given how suspicious you are... but I could be wrong

[DoubtingThomas]

IC statement

If you are confused about the setup spec discussion here, go look at the setup matrix in post #2. Assume that everyone else claims VT, and that townies don't lie about their role. In that case:

• The setup is either
  A3
  (with
  Cop
  ,
  Doctor
  , and
  Roleblocker
  ) or
  C1
  (with just
  Cop
  ).
  
• Each of these setups is
  prima facie
  equally probable.
  
• mallowgeno is the Cop.
  
• TWAIN is either the Doctor or a Goon.
  
• There is no way to conclusively disprove that TWAIN is the Doctor.
  
• There is only one way to conclusively prove that TWAIN is the Doctor: by flipping the Roleblocker, thereby proving a Doctor exists.

This is why I said earlier that TWAIN shouldn't be lynched today but neither should he be considered conftown just for the claim.

>what does he think when he flips red?
That I am very likely scum trying to save his mate.

Not

very likely

, to be fair. Yes if he flipped Goon it would increase my credence in that, both because a Goon flip is evidence in the Bayesian sense that the setup is column C rather than column A and because right now I don't see you questioning any other suggestions except Poseidon.

If he flipped RB, of course, you'd be 100% cleared.

If he flipped green, I'm on the fence as far as what that would say about you, but it would certainly make me more interested in DoubtingThomas again based on the earlier intent to hammer Poseidon while calling him

null

.

fixed

[DoubtingThomas]

IC statement

If you are confused about the setup spec discussion here, go look at the setup matrix in post #2. Assume that everyone else claims VT, and that townies don't lie about their role. In that case:

• The setup is either
  A3
  (with
  Cop
  ,
  Doctor
  , and
  Roleblocker
  ) or
  C1
  (with just
  Cop
  ).
  
• Each of these setups is
  prima facie
  equally probable.
  
• mallowgeno is the Cop.
  
• TWAIN is either the Doctor or a Goon.
  
• There is no way to conclusively disprove that TWAIN is the Doctor.
  
• There is only one way to conclusively prove that TWAIN is the Doctor: by flipping the Roleblocker, thereby proving a Doctor exists.

This is why I said earlier that TWAIN shouldn't be lynched today but neither should he be considered conftown just for the claim.

is the fact that mallowgeno is the cop 100% infallible, or only on the ground that you don't expect an actual cop to not CC him atm?

[DoubtingThomas]

By the way, "what do we learn if this lynch hits town" is an

excellent

question to be asking and part of why PhantomCobalt is last in my lynch preference: he has basically zero meaningful associatives with anyone.

Is it me or does this just sound like a set up to start a wagon on me after ( and if ) poseidon flips town because "I intended to hammer someone who I town read (which was not the case)"

[DoubtingThomas]

Mallows is doing too much PR hunting as a VT

a big dislike

[DoubtingThomas]

Mallows is doing too much PR hunting as a VT

a big dislike

not mallows, umlaut

[DoubtingThomas]

I think Umlaut, nonny and DT! are town.

what's the ! at the end for?

[DoubtingThomas]

@Umlaut IC question.

Do people get mod killed for not having a vote in?

[DoubtingThomas]

>what's the ! at the end for?
It's basically a clear indicator that you flipped my opinion on you.

... because I was too stupid to understand the game matrix?

Idk how to feel about this... be happy that I convinced you or be sad that you are thinking I am too dumb to be mafia


Also idk how I should take the fact you were effectively tunnel-y scum reading me the whole game only for you to completely flip your opinion of me from a single post, something I couldn't do even when I tried really hard

:thinking face:

[DoubtingThomas]

@TWAIN

Granting that DT's confusion about the setup is genuine, why does that imply he's town?

(I can think of some reasons to suppose that, but I want to hear

your

reasons.)

can u answer my Q?

[DoubtingThomas]

He was also in game 1880 that included me, twain, nonny, and light ethis

[DoubtingThomas]

Really don't understand your point of view on DT

he's tunneling

or just mafia building up his case for later. maybe he will say, 'well i've been scum reading him entire game, lynch him'

.idk at this point. power wolfing attempt?

[DoubtingThomas]

>Granting that DT's confusion about the setup is genuine, why does that imply he's town?
Scum would rely on the possibility of a single PR setup to cast doubt on me. DT not only is not aware of the possibility, but in his post he's basically ready to confirm me as town with mallow's death, though that's in no way indicative of whether I tell the truth.

This actually makes a lot of sense.

I was thinking for a moment after I asked the question that it could conceivably be a scumslip, if scum!DT momentarily forgot that he wasn't supposed to know we were in Column A. But in that case it wouldn't make any sense for him to show as much skepticism of your claim as he has in the first place unless he was setting up to counter it himself, and that would require him to shoot outside of you and mallow which seems like a distinctly inferior plan to just accepting it and then killing you off at night.

I don't even know who's left in the lynch pool. I feel like we're going to just default to Cobalt for lack of other options.

I think posts like this just gives me an impression that, "Oh I see TWAIN, your point on DT. I THOUGHT it made him more scummy, but I guess it could also be townie slip" and "WELL I really don't want to kill Cobalt... (b/c i want to kill dt for some reason I can't think of)"

Like you say on multiple occasion that you are liking my play better and that it seems townier, and there are even town slip possibilities on me.

Yet you just refuse to change your opinion of me, at all.

It's like you are just posting shit to say, "Well, I think DT is being townier and townier.... I just wish I can not lynch him, but I have to" but you just can't not scum read me even though the general flow of the game, including my own playstyle has changed.

This rejection to incorporate a new read on me is really concerning and it doesn't look scumhunting.

Just looks like you have your mind set on who you WANT to lynch.

[DoubtingThomas]

i'd like to come up with some conclusion well before the deadline in case i cant make it to eod

[DoubtingThomas]

@DT

I mean I tried to push Poseidon (now Invis) and no one was interested but nonny. I voted mallow and he turned out to be the cop. Your previous candidate TWAIN is out of the lynchpool now too. We don't have a lot of options and you're not anywhere close to the towniest one around so yes you are on the list. Invis is still ahead of you because Poseidon's play was extremely anti-town; my experience is it's hard to lynch replace-ins but I'll do what I can.

Who do you want to lynch and why aren't you voting them?

We definitely can't lynch mallows and TWAIN now, so that's out

I am probably not voting to lynch myself, so that leaves 6 people out of 9

Saudade, umlaut, nonny, invis, phantom, LaserGuy

Saudade, I am still liking him at townish. Obviously, subject to change in the future potentially

Invis(Poseidon) is just low poster, and I really don't have a big opinion of him, like I've mentioned numerously. After seeing Invis replace him, I think his general read on the game is pretty fair, he's also given a good unbiased opinion of what I was saying, but is insistent on lynching me, so maybe that's hedging behavior which is scum indicative. For now, however, I'd like to keep him alive and see how he progresses.

Phantom, I liked less and he took an active position to potentially lynch mallows there, while still showing very little indication that he's really read the thread. I am more comfortable with a phantom lynch than invis lynch.

LaserGuy, well he's been v/la for the past couple days and has contributed little recently. However, I liked his approach, especially when he thought he caught your scum slip. Probably leave him for now.

Nonny, I used to like a lot less, but have grown to like more. However, I dislike how she asked me buttload of questions and... didn't really even acknowledge me on any of them. Just a rude play, not really scum or town read. I also don't know what she's talking about when I am pinging her for being self-aware? Like what do you mean and if I was self-aware how is that pinging you in what way?

Umlaut, I am sure you can guess, but I am beginning to dislike you. You've claimed that I had a change of plays, but is just reluctant to drop me as your vote. Your respond in 607 is also weird, because your main reason for reading me as scum is because you've had an experience where a newb!scum learns from their own mistakes? so you are saying newb!town can never learn? and you think this is so highly scum indicative that you don't even want to see how my game progresses farther despite the change of play I have made? Are you implying that you are scared that I would, somehow, be able to be town read by everyone as a scum just because my change of play is so impressive and you have done that before as a scum? This chain of thought doesn't make sense, especially to the point to vote me to be lynched. It just sounds like a bs reason to lynch me. I think the logical thing to do here as a town!umlaut is to see how I am going to play just because I am one of the most noticeable and active slot, not just to lynch me because there's a chance that I might be a scum that changed my playstyle after receiving criticism that can fool others to be townread? Especially when you don't have a strong town read on the other slots that have been lacking in activity. I think this post of yours shows once again that your mind is, for some reason, fixated on scum!doubtingthomas

Nonny's been better, umlaut got worse, and phantom is just phantom. I am honestly okay with lynching any one of the three. Phantom is at L-1, so let's see what he comes up with. Other than that, umlaut, I have my eyes on you, and I hope you explain yourself and do not back off from whatever you've claimed, because that's going to insta trigger my scum radar and I am going to ISO you again and start tunneling you.

[DoubtingThomas]

Umlaut, I am sure you can guess, but I am beginning to dislike you. You've claimed that I had a change of plays, but is just reluctant to drop me as your vote. Your respond in 607 is also weird, because your main reason for reading me as scum is because you've had an experience where a newb!scum learns from their own mistakes? so you are saying newb!town can never learn? and you think this is so highly scum indicative that you don't even want to see how my game progresses farther despite the change of play I have made? Are you implying that you are scared that I would, somehow, be able to be town read by everyone as a scum just because my change of play is so impressive and you have done that before as a scum?

I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. I'm not using the change in tone as a reason to scumread you. What I'm saying is I think tone and style are inherently more alignment-indicative in the early game because they are unschooled, and I scumread your early tone and style hard enough that I'm reluctant to drop that read based on things that happened later after you got settled in and learned how to write townier posts.

Also it's not just me who's gotten away with this. I've watched games where the town correctly identifies the scumteam on day 1 and then loses because they start focusing on what players have done

lately

and forget to give due weight to their early reads. And I've also had the experience of continuing to push early-game evidence only to have the whole town tell me "come on Umlaut, stop pushing this same stale case from page 5 and catch up with us," including the guy who actually wrote the case on page 5, when that case was actually solid and the one cased was scum. This is not a vague theoretical concern, it's something that happens constantly and that I am specifically on guard against.

Using tone as part of the reasons to scum read someone, fine

Using change of tone as part of the reasons to scum read someone? no. don't do that.. lol

[DoubtingThomas]

i don't see a solid case from you. can you post your old ones and compare and constrast them to the new reads you have on me?

[DoubtingThomas]

I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. I'm not using the change in tone as a reason to scumread you. What I'm saying is I think tone and style are inherently more alignment-indicative in the early game because they are unschooled, and I scumread your early tone and style hard enough that I'm reluctant to drop that read based on things that happened later after you got settled in and learned how to write townier posts.

the vice-versa is true? a town can also change their playstyle?

you didn't recognize that, ever. i just think this reason you even brought up is plain stupid, and i am questioning your motive to 1)bring this up in the first place 2)still using it, continuously backing it up with your previous experiences to defend your original position

[DoubtingThomas]

I want to see what was so incredibly scummy of you to refuse to change your views on me since your earlier reads.

you said the others had legitimate case on them when they got dismissed. i'd like to see one from you too

[DoubtingThomas]

I want to see what was so incredibly scummy of

me

to refuse to change your views on me since your earlier reads.

you said the others had legitimate case on them when they got dismissed. i'd like to see one from you too

fixed

[DoubtingThomas]

DT, you can't seriously claim I've never cased you. I've answered repeated questions about this from both you and Saudade.

(Predicted DT response: "I said a

legitimate

case, not yours which is obviously illegitimate because I don't agree with you that I'm scum")

No, I told you to compare and contrast to what you thought changed to my more recent posts

[DoubtingThomas]

DT: you being self aware of your change could mean it was an intentional change. That pings as scummy, town knows they are town (and don’t think anyone should see them as otherwise typically) and therefore have little to no reason to change when sucmread. Scum needs to be read as ton and would be more likely to change if they are scumread or majority scumread.

This is... kind of true, but in addition to being told it was scummy he was told his play was bad and anti-town, so changing it intentionally could come from town too. This is the part I agree with about DT's response (and why I've made a point of saying I'm not scumreading him specifically

for

the change, just not wanting to grant it too many townpoints).

Yeah, not too fond of nonny trying to imply that even after just blatantly refusing to talk to me for playing like that, lmao.

sounds like she knew i was town to begin with?

[DoubtingThomas]

>and idk nonny and Saudude could be scum too but they don’t ping me
What does ping you about LG and Invi?

DT: as it stands right now, what does your crystal globe tell you is the scum team?

given that the pr's are true,

I have nonny umlaut invis phantom as most scummy for me atm

if there is two scums in that 4 pile (of course saudade can be, but he's not pinging me at all rn, maybe in the future)

i feel like there's one between nonny and umlaut and one between invis and phantom, with phantom being more likely from the latter group.

I guess once we have more information from lynching phantom, by re-assessing his interaction, I can become more sure of it. as of now

maybe almost 50-50 between nonny, umlaut and 60-70 to 20-30 for phantom invis?

[DoubtingThomas]

I am actually down to hammer phantom

so where is this man

[DoubtingThomas]

Still possible we have two goons and mallow is one

Only possible if there's an unclaimed tracker. And if so I expect them to claim immediately, but I'm pretty confident there's not.

why are you confident there's not?

[DoubtingThomas]

if mallow!cop is true, mallow getting RB'ed is 1/3 chances?

if we have someone that can cc mallows rn with cop, jailkeeper, neapolitan, tracker, pls come out and this game is over

if not mallow is pretty much confirmed cop i think

[DoubtingThomas]

wait no i read the matrix wrong

if mallows is cop he just got rb'ed

ahhh ok

[DoubtingThomas]

wait wouldn't it be better if twain healed himself there..

so mallows would come out with a scan if twan gets rb'ed and killed,

and if mallows gets rb'ed and twain's alive that's still 1 v 6, pretty sure we would have been fine even because mafia wouldn't have cc'ed twain that's suicide. so twain still remains as an un-cc'ed doc

[DoubtingThomas]

Because it's weekend I am more available on the computer at work (it's sad).

I am pretty sure I am confident with voting nonny and everyone else voting nonny after I flip town

I like that Umlaut and Invis are trying to solve the game, whereas all nonny's been doing is trying to encourage umlaut to vote for me instead. In her perspective, she should be questioning umlaut/invis, but it just seems like she knows the answer

looks like my earlier read on her was right

VOTE: nonny

Just hammer me so we can quickly end the game with nonny's lynch next phase

[DoubtingThomas]

There's no way Saudade is scum here when nonny is playing like that. She's not mentioned a single suspicion on umlaut/invis until post 701 after TWAIN died, 'you only see scum in me and DT because?'

ISO her posts after twain's death. she's so construed and focused on trying to convince umlaut to lynch me instead

[DoubtingThomas]

UNVOTE: DoubtingThomas

maybe almost 50-50 between nonny, umlaut and 60-70 to 20-30 for phantom invis?

@DoubtingThomas

Similar question to what I just asked nonny, but the other way around. What leaned you toward PhantomCobalt as more likely scum than Invisibility?

I would like an answer to this.

I agree that if it's not you it's nonny, but I do still care to try and figure out which it is.

What answer do you need? I already explained the reasoning in that post. are you not reading completely?

I've always seen umlaut-nonny to be pretty scummy which developed into a pretty equal position by late into the game since D1. I am sure everyone can agree on that.

The reason why I thought phantom was more likely, as I've explained in the post, is because Invis put a more active approach in the game after he subbed in. Invis took his time to read the game and give his actual opinion and despite thinking I am scummy (while poniting out that some posts that umlaut/nonny/twain found were scummy to be townie), he actually put in effort into the game

Meanwhile, all Phnatom did the minute he joined the game is,

"Just won a three man and made it look like I do it for fun

VOTE: twain"

"Woah woah woah I voted Twain to stir the pot a little not to have the potential doctor at L-1

Idk who’s voting who rn cuz I’m on mobile but just to play it safe UNVOTE:"

"Mallow are you advocating for a NL?"

He seemed to be jumping all over the place and did not have an actual rebuttal to Saudade's suspicion of how he read the posts so fast/etc.

In post 523, TWAIN wrote:
Nonny, how do you rank the players from most to least likely to be scum? Your vote on Poseidon feels out of left field.

I don’t, I’ve already said I don’t play that way. My brain doesn’t categorize reads that way.

PoE because no lynch is not an option.

LG: no one is confirmed until they are dead. At the minimum one of them could still be scum who knows which set up we are in if there are 2 goons. More likely to be Mallow since his claim was second. Not advocating lunch on in cc’d PR just saying I don’t write them off as town.

Nonny's vote on Poseidon also pings me now. There was nothing for nonny to believe phantom was eliminated to be town in her PoE to vote Poseidon at that point. Yet, she uses the reasoning of PoE to vote Poseidon. It's like she never even considered voting for Phantom.

Also I quickly ISO'ed her and it's hard for me to understand how fixated she can be on her position for me. It almost feels like it's blasphemy for her to consider anyone outside of me to be scum. I feel like townies should always have the mindset to adjust their reads as the game goes on because the stuff happens, because more information are being spewed out as days go by. Yes, Umlaut has refused to do change his 'view' too, but at least in some of his posts I can see he's trying to solve the game. Nonny's tone and consistency on pushing me -- like near the EoD, the only times she came to post was to refute whatever I said. She wasn't even concerned with the new phantom wagon. At least I showed my intent to hammer, it's like nonny wasn't even thinking about it.

I am really sure nonny is the lynch here, if she flips town, well. Saudade, and I think Invis is townier than Umlaut for their vote on Phantom and umlaut or I should be lynched

[DoubtingThomas]

Why am I being prodded

Come on boys we dont have much to think about its vote one or the other

[DoubtingThomas]

I do feel a bit alarmed that invis just wants me dead but welp i hope its just my paranoia

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: DoubtingThomas L-1

I'mma let the conftown decide.

(Not-so-secret ulterior motive here: I think it's more certain that we have the votes to lynch nonny tomorrow if DT is town than the other way around.)

What? Why would it be any different?

Stop hedging and make a god damn decision that makes sense

[DoubtingThomas]

And with that I recommend towns to lynch unlaut ibstead of nonny when i flip town because that was suchc a hesging vote that scums would post in order to get out of blame

Why wouldthe votes be different tomorrow if i get lynched over nonny today? Doesnt eveb make sense

Towns pls look at this shit

[DoubtingThomas]

crazy how umlaut blindly votes me when invis still has scum equity.

who are you going to vote after i flip villa, umlaut? serious question

[DoubtingThomas]

Why wouldthe votes be different tomorrow if i get lynched over nonny today? Doesnt eveb make sense

Mallow thinks you're scum and nonny is town last I checked, and Mallow is most likely to die tonight.

If nonny is lynched then tomorrow it's you, me, LaserGuy, Saudade, and Invisibility. Of these Invisibility and I are the only ones I'm confident would vote you; Saudade likely won't, and I'm not sure about LaserGuy.

If you're lynched then tomorrow it's me, nonny, LaserGuy, Saudade, and Invisibility. I know that LaserGuy, Saudade, and I will all vote for nonny in that situation.

just like to point this post out to everyone.

nonny the flipped town has also pointed this post out.

i only wish nonny didn't tunnel me the whole game

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: umlaut

[DoubtingThomas]

I can trust both

I am hammering soon invis didnt even bother to rebute

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: invisibility

[DoubtingThomas]

oh wait Saudade just PoE'd (completely factoring out laserguy smhsmshsmshmsmhsmhmshmshmhsmhmshmhmshmsmshmhshmmhmhmhsmsmh)

so u r saying saudade is 100% town?

[DoubtingThomas]

like i think you are implying that saudade is a town that used process of elimination to find out you are a scum while excluding laserguy. how do you come to this conclusion?

[DoubtingThomas]

Nice hammer there

Like of all the L-1 wagons this game the only one DT didn't even threaten to quickhammer was the one on confirmed scum Cobalt. Good look there.

well i think i just threw town the game then

trusted saudade too much?

gg my bad @town

[DoubtingThomas]

Going to post this now in case Invis is town and I die during the night:

IC Statement

A scenario with 2 town and 1 scum is LyLo: Lynch (correctly) or Lose. This means that if at any point tomorrow one townie is voting the other, the scum can immediately hammer to win the game. For that reason it is generally a

really bad idea

to flash-vote another player early in the day, and we should all take time to discuss before doing so.

Of course, if one player were confirmed town for some reason (verified PR claim, clear from confirmed cop, etc.) then it would be a different story. But that's not something we're going to see in this game, so be cautious! You have to vote someone eventually, but that's no reason to be hasty -- continue to discuss things until you're sure nothing is going to happen that would change your mind.

you will not die.

you and i are the scummiest out of the 4 left

[DoubtingThomas]

ugh was a little too busy and forgot abotu the L-1 thing here HAHA, my bad bois

[DoubtingThomas]

well i think i just threw town the game then

trusted saudade too much?

gg my bad @town

This statement appears to be written from the perspective that Invisibility is town.

because he already claimed town..

why would he lie about his alignment after i already hammered?

please stop being blinded

[DoubtingThomas]

ugh was a little too busy and forgot abotu the L-1 thing here HAHA, my bad bois

wait what do you mean by this

i forgot here it gets auto hammered when the vote is at L-1

other places dont do that

[DoubtingThomas]

Gg, everyone. not a good game for me, but had fun nonetheless.

i am pretty sure i screwed myself up by hammering AGAIN lmao, sorry @twain @nonny. i did it again.

i was starting to see the possibility that saudade was a scum after he told me to vote invis, saying he knows where this was going, and with invis being town...

but yea honestly no idea if i would have ended up voting saudade or umlaut in the end. saudade pocketed me for good by being like the only one town reading me consistently throughout the game and maybe that should have pinged me, but oh well

it was a fun game, nonetheless, i feel like saudade should be awarded the win in hindsight with how well he's played? but yea i will take a draw gladly.

that being said, is it normal to check people's time in? i feel like that technically shouldn't affect the game, huh?

gg umlaut ironically, we are the only ones that survived til the end (in town team) !

[DoubtingThomas]

yea jeez idk why i hammered again. i've been playing a lot of MU and 12/12s or 36/12s and i forgot about hammering again.

sorry about ruining the game in the retrospective, and to those who i might have offended to any extent, sorry! really didnt mean it.

and to the point that umlaut made about me changing my playstyle,

umm I can say that I didn't really mean to change it all that much except to go less aggressive on people after a certain point, as I was getting a lot of heat from people that was getting more difficult to manage.

I do think, however, it's a possibility that I picked up a lot of stuff here and there, especially because I got more games in between the duration of this game, so maybe my play did in some sense improve/or at least change.

gg, everyone

[DoubtingThomas]

wait MU allows for unvoting after a hammer

well, it's more like a lot of MU games don't have hammer installed. at least the games i've played. not until LYLO.

[DoubtingThomas]

i am pretty sure i screwed myself up by hammering AGAIN lmao, sorry @twain @nonny. i did it again.

I don't know if it was so much the hammering that caused you any trouble, honestly.

What I would probably suggest for you is to dial back the aggression a bit, especially in the early game. It's good to push people, ask questions and follow up on leads. You are very good at generating content. OTOH, I think trying to develop full scum cases on people off of 2-3 pages of content is going to end up drawing a lot of fire because your reads are necessarily fairly thin, and the only way you can really make a case look strong at that point is to either 1) overstate your confidence in your reads, or 2) misrepresent marginal things as scummier than they actually are. Both of these things, to everyone else, look scummy (and right or wrong, people tend to scumread aggression regardless of alignment, so you're already setting yourself up for suspicion even if your cases are meticulous). You also end up overcommiting to your reads/cases by doing this. If you've written a three page essay on why someone is scum, you've probably convinced yourself of it, and thus it's much harder to fairly evaluate their responses and back down gracefully if you are wrong. This is more a style thing, but, personally, I usually spend most of D1 looking for Town, not scum. Especially in a small game like this, if you can softclear 3 people with fairly high confidence, it's much easier to find scum in the remaining players.

(Ninja: I see you picked up on this already and did adjust your play accordingly, which probably saved you from being mislynched, honestly... your second half of the game was much more solid than the first half).

yeah, i agree. i think my initial reason to be highly aggressive was (well this was what, my third game? of mafia ever, so i probably partially got too excited) also thinking if i show extreme aggression, some people will say, 'that person is trying to catch too much fire, unlikely to be mafia?' and it kinda happened.. on like one or two people

and then yea, later i learned from other games that trying to find towns are a thing and tried to focus on that instead. that's why i hard town read saudade (lmao)